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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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DD doesn't want to go to church any more

603 replies

jessicabenomi · 04/02/2018 23:18

First-time poster here...

My three dd's have been coming to church with me every Sunday their entire lives (dh doesn't come).

It's increasingly being a struggle to get my eldest dd (aged 14) to come. She always says she has too much homework or she wants to meet her friends. Today after we got back she said that the youth Sunday school was so awful that she never wants to go again and she doesn't believe in God.

She's had one of these anti-church "episodes" (I know that's the wrong word I just can't think of another) every few years, but has always calmed down and come back to church before.

Am I being unreasonable to make her come with me? I don't want to force her if she truly doesn't believe, but my faith is so important to me and my church family have been so supportive at difficult times of my life. I just want her to have that support too.

OP posts:
ReanimatedSGB · 05/02/2018 11:00

More and more people who have a good education are rejecting superstition, which can only be a good thing. In its place, in otherwise decent individuals, having an imaginary friend is harmless enough - it's just a quirk, like believing in horoscopes or whatever. Unfortunately a lot of people use their imaginary friend to coerce and harm others.

steppemum · 05/02/2018 11:07

We go to church as a family. My ds is now 15, and doesn't want to go. For a while we insisted, it was part of who we are as a family. But it was obvious that we were just building up resentment in him, which was having the effect of pushing him away from church more.

He says he doesn't believe in God and doesn't want to go to church.

So he now doesn't come with us. I am happy that by allowing him to make this choice he feels like he has choice over what he does/doesn't believe.

I am sure he will come back to faith later, for a variety of reasons. But my main aim with him is to let him know how much we love him and that we don't love him less/judge/ etc etc for his choice over church.

I was actually talking to one of the church leaders about this last Sunday, they were very supportive, and kind. That to me was the correct response from a church leader.

EastMidsMummy · 05/02/2018 11:15

It's terribly arrogant and controlling to be sure your son will "come back to faith."

Listen to what he's telling you. He doesn't believe in god. In fact, he doesn't believe in god in exactly the same way that you don't believe in Santa or in fairies.

How would you feel if your parents were sure that you will come back to Santa later in life?

AgathaF · 05/02/2018 11:18

OP you've not said what her dad makes of all of this, and of you forcing her to attend when she doesn't want to? Does he voice an opinion on it?

TimeIhadaNameChange · 05/02/2018 11:28

I never had a choice.

I knew I didn't really believe when I was about 12. Still got confirmed as I wasn't allowed not to be.

When I was about 17 I had a crisis of faith, and my mother got our priest round to talk to me. Neither of them actually listened to what I said, and I felt as though I had to give in to keep the peace.

At university I joined various denomination's clubs, in an effort to find Him somewhere. I didn't. I left them all and stopped going to church. At about 21, whilst home from uni during the summer, I was offered a Sunday job. My mother made me turn it down as I "had to go to church".

Finally stopped going to her church about a year later. At first, the only option available to me was to go, or stay in the house on my own. I finally persuaded her that going for a coffee was perfectly acceptable.

I now go about once a year, and only when I'm visiting my mother. I have no faith, and rather look down on those who do.

If you want your daughter to go down the same road as I have, carry on forcing her. She'll resent it, and possibly you, soon enough.

BexConnor · 05/02/2018 11:33

Don't force her to come OP and don't read too much in to it either. She's 14. She's more interested in other stuff right now. She might come back to it, or she might not, but either way it needs to be her choice.

Do you want her to believe because she figured out for herself that that's what she wants, or do you want her to believe because she feels obliged to? And would that truly be belief?

At her age I was the biggest aethiest going (metaphorically speaking - I'm actually tiny Blush ). I came back to faith in my early twenties.

Your daughter may or may not find her own faith later on, but the point I'm trying to get to is that you need to let her find her own way and her own path in life.

BlackEyedKid · 05/02/2018 11:36

TimeIHad - I think it’s perfectly fine to look down on those who believe in anything without evidence and I don’t understand why religion is exempt from common sense.

Lizzie48 · 05/02/2018 11:38

I know Turkey is officially secular, @MadeleineMaxwell but there is definitely an element of militant Islam there, and it's a deeply conservative society. So I'm actually encouraged to think there is freedom for scientists to express their views on religion honestly and openly.

KateAdiesEarrings · 05/02/2018 11:39

Renanimated the belief that there is a correlation between education level and religion has been disproved by dual process theory.

VileyRose · 05/02/2018 11:48

I would never make a child of any age go to church if they didn't want too.

Another who was raised in a religious family and now will openly tell my parents I definitely do not believe in God/Devil/Jesus.

corythatwas · 05/02/2018 11:51

"there is no such thing as a Christian child, just a child of Christian parents."

I grew up a Christian in an atheist family and a non-religious school. Just saying.

Would you equally deny the right of a child in a Christian family to declare themselves an atheist? Which my ds did very early on. Must be somebody who brain-washed him- or maybe he just came to his own conclusions?

ReanimatedSGB · 05/02/2018 11:53

Kate: it actually all seems to be a bit inconclusive. But on the whole, smarter people see through bullshit quicker. There's a tendency among superstition peddlers to discredit education and independent thought, anyway.

Lizzie48 · 05/02/2018 11:58

I would never make a child of any age go to church if they didn't want too.

How does that work if both parents go to church? You can't leave them at home for two hours, that would be neglect. My DD1 has sometimes said she doesn't want to go, but she actually loves her Sunday School teacher. It's just the same where school is concerned, she says she doesn't want to go but loves it.

If she really did have a problem with it, it would be something we would have to talk through. But it's nothing to do with not believing; she still believes in Santa and the tooth fairy.

steppemum · 05/02/2018 12:05

It's terribly arrogant and controlling to be sure your son will "come back to faith."

wow - who rattled your cage?

how is it controlling to hope that at some point he will rediscover the values we taught him.

I am a post grad, with 2 degrees and I grew up in a atheist family.

I became a Christian aged 24. I hope that the same things that drew me will draw him.

I will however give him to freedom to chose for himself. The main reason he had to come with us as long as he did was age - if he didn't come he had to be on his own at home all morning.

KateAdiesEarrings · 05/02/2018 12:07

Do you consider yourself to be one of those 'smarter' people Reanimated ?

DullAndOld · 05/02/2018 12:11

tbf if people want an imaginary friend., like a small child who needs a nightlight in the dark, leave them to it. fgs they think that death is not the end. They go around with a replica of an instrument of death and torture round their necks. YOu can't argue with them.

astoundedgoat · 05/02/2018 12:17

My Mum had a very strong faith, and I had to go to Mass with her every Sunday til I was about 16. This was the norm in Dublin at the time though - it was quite literally where you saw your friends at the weekend "Mum can I sit with Siobhain and Niamh?" "No" "Muuuuummmmmmmm!" etc. etc.

It helped a lot that I joined the folk group at 14 because then I had something social to do that was church-oriented just at the point where I would have started kicking up a fuss about going.

When I finished school though, I stopped going to Mass. Mum was very sad about it, but understood. Dad had never gone, ever.

I had a crack at it again when I was in my 20's but the fundamental difficulty is that I don't believe in God, so making the rest of it stick is a bit challenging!

I understand that you are feeling disappointed about it, but your faith is your own, and once your daughter is leading a kind and moral life, and the door is always left open for her, there is no harm in her finding her own way. Be glad that you have a daughter who is capable of thinking about and articulating her faith to you, and has the self-assurance to stand up for her position.

JacquesHammer · 05/02/2018 12:28

how is it controlling to hope that at some point he will rediscover the values we taught him

How do you mean values? As in being a decent person? Being kind? Being morally sound?

TranquilityofSolitude · 05/02/2018 12:36

My DDs found at this age that they were happier helping to run groups for smaller children than participating in youth groups.

LaurieMarlow · 05/02/2018 12:36

how is it controlling to hope that at some point he will rediscover the values we taught him.

I don't think it's controlling to 'hope' anything. But it is arrogant to 'be sure' that he'll come back to the faith, which is what you wrote in your original post.

nextDayDelivery · 05/02/2018 12:36

@Lizzie48

"If you can use proper arguments to justify what you're saying without using childish insults then by all means I'll listen."

I think you're confusing me with another poster as there have been no childish insults from me.

Here goes my entirely logical argument.

Situation 1 - God exists and the bible is a guide for life.

God is demonstrably not good. He is not benign. The things he has done and the things he commanded be done in his name in the bible were horrific. If he exists then he his a nasty, nasty bastard. He makes Lenin and Mao look a little misguided and Kim Jong Il / Un a tiny bit vain.

The things done in his name are horrific (mother Teresa being a good example). The crusades. The papal inquisition.

My Argument

If you take the bible and god's example as a guide then you have some very warped views and many do.

Situation 2 - God doesn't exist

Well, that's easy, isn't it.

As there is not a single, tiny shred of evidence anywhere that points to him existing it seems the likely answer. The bible is full of contradictions. Some 'facts' proven incorrect (Genesis) and just general nonsense. It's implausible and the more benign parts are actually quite funny insomuch as if I told you stories like the bible you would assume I'm mad!

Situation 3 - God might exist

Maybe you ignore the evidence that a lot of the biblical stories didn't happen or the contradictions and the evil and bile and hatred and truly horrific things god did and think, maybe he's real; I'll be a christian and have faith.

Well, you shouldn't. If he's real he's a nasty bastard. Lukemia, dementia, the eye-worm (thanks for that Stephen Fry). Remember, they're 'his' creations. "All things dull and ugly, all creatures short and fat. All things rank and cancerous ..."

Then we move on to Hitler, rape, child soldiers...

I understand the logical get-out-clause of him allowing free will but that experiment's clearly failed! Maybe it's time for the omnipotent god to step in!

Maybe he isn't real and I can base my life on my own morality. I think everyone's born equal regardless of sexuality, religious persuasion or otherwise. I judge people on their merits. I want to be a good person because it benefits society. I see us all as animals who evolved along with the rest of our planet. When we die, we feed the worms and trees and the miraculous cycle begins again.

In my eyes I do better than anyone living by the gospel but that's besides the point. The only person who watches me, who keeps me safe, who sees everything and judges my worth, who knows when I could have done better and is full of pride when I show love and compassion and understanding with knowledge of my innermost thoughts is ... me!

I fervently believe that you cannot be a good 'abrahamic faith person'
(they're the three I know enough about to comment on) and a good person. Following the book of your choosing doesn't allow it.

Good people who call themselves christians etc are hypocritical by virtue of the fact that they are ignoring their scriptures. Good on them but I think it's good to point it out to them before they indoctrinate their own children.

People who do follow their scriptures think gays go to hell, rape victims need marry the rapists, women should be treated differently by society be that not going to church when menstruating or dressing modestly and all kinds of other unacceptable views. They are not good people. Well, they may have been led astray by religion but that's a separate discussion.

I think that the only possible argument I struggle to contend is that their faith can bring people comfort. However, I think that the only reason it can is because these people have already been brainwashed. I went to a well-known reasonably religious school near Brighton and realised as a first year in chapel what nonsense we were listening to. If I hadn't I can understand that I would take comfort in a god.

Good people who do so are not following their book though. They might be good people but that's because they ignore the majority of their scripture and rely on an invisible comforter.

There is my argument against religion. It has brought nothing. It poisons everything. It makes good people do evil or good people ignore the teachings and be good despite claiming their religiosity.

I think I've rambled a bit but I hope I've explained why I am a staunch anti-theist.

In the face of absolutely no evidence, why are you a christian?

Despite the atrocities that your god committed, why do you love and worship him?

How is your life better in any way thanks to your religion (and the invisible comforter argument doesn't work!)

Dontforgetyourtowel · 05/02/2018 12:40

nextDayDelivery preach! Grin

KateAdiesEarrings · 05/02/2018 12:56

It may be worth reading some theologians if you genuinely want to debate religion. The gap between your perception and the reality of religion, faith and theology, is too wide to debate across.
You're obviously very angry and emotional about what you perceive other's views to be. You may find it helpful to try to process why you feel so strongly about it. You're not going to find answers or peace on a MN board.
And it is ironic that the staunch atheists on MN feel the need to 'preach'.

FluffyWuffy100 · 05/02/2018 13:00

How does that work if both parents go to church?

You could attend different services.

LaurieMarlow · 05/02/2018 13:00

Short of trying to persuade people to change their mind on brexit, I can't think of anything more pointless than trying to persuade people to change their mind about faith on mumsnet.

But whatever floats people's boats I guess.