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AIBU?

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Original poster

Jacob Rees mogg at the University of the West of England (Title edited by MNHQ)

946 replies

Grrrrrsnarl · 02/02/2018 23:18

Just watched the clip of Jacob rees mogg at Bristol university, when a few momentum activists try to cause havoc and stop him from talking

Whatever anyone thinks of this man, I have to say he was pretty gutsy going up to them, considering they are all hiding behind Balaclavas and scarves and there wasn't any security there.
Most politicians wouldn't have gone near them, let alone try to talk to them

I like him. Yes his views are controversial and I don't agree with some of them, but at least he stands up for what he believes in

Full video
twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/959529976616947712. ( Sorry only know how to link to a tweet)

OP posts:

Thread gallery

Eltonjohnssyrup · 03/02/2018 12:15

Do these activists belong to a local knitting society? Does that implicate the knitting society?

A knitting society is not a political organisation. It would not raise questions about the knitting societies affiliations.

That's an extremely disingenuous comment.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 03/02/2018 12:18

Once someone invokes the nazis conversation and rational debate almost always dies. It's like a fail safe. Godwin's Law always wins.

I believe that was a left wing supporter about 7 or 8 pages ago.

makeourfuture · 03/02/2018 12:20

promoting these types of responses

Again. I know knee-jerk reactions happen. But let's see who these people were.

makeourfuture · 03/02/2018 12:23

Look, the police will be aware of this.

It is probably true that they have had their budgets cut recently. But they will be doing their best to get to the bottom of it.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 03/02/2018 12:28

But let's see who these people were.

Does it matter who they are though?
Why do you need to wait & see who they were?

Either you think this sort of behaviour is unequivocally wrong or you don't - it's very straightforward.

Perhaps you'd like to take the opportunity to condemn it now, and support JRM's right to free speech?

LifeBeginsAtGin · 03/02/2018 12:44

Do these activists belong to a local knitting society? Does that implicate the knitting society?

Probably knitting black balaclavas.

VladmirsPoutine · 03/02/2018 12:52

It's not exclusively a 'white people' thing.

It isn't. But it is quite wondrous how 'white people' became associated with beauty, class, education and wealth; if we are considering other races in this discussion. Have you seen or read the documentaries on the popularity of skin lightening agents used by Africans and Indians. Or understood the difficulty black women face with their hair? Or indeed eye-lid equalling operations in Asia? It is not the same as white people wanting to tan or get lip injections so don't retort with that. Privilege is a real phenomenon mainly afforded to white people. And I have no qualms in stating that to be a fact.

I am mixed race - my dad was mixed - he had blue eyes and blonde hair yet was half black. People upon learning that he was half black would literally looked shock to their core. As do I - these days it's slightly different but people are often surprised to learn of my racial make-up as they just didn't 'expect' it. That speaks volumes. I don't want or need others to be offended on my behalf but I will never ever consider that BJ and DA are somehow held to account in similar terms. I'm not on the left or right - indeed I bemoan a decent representation of liberal views in this country at the minute. It seems to be an attitude of 'with us or against us'. I don't buy into that narrative but JRM is not fit for office or indeed the 21st century.

psychomath · 03/02/2018 12:58

Once someone invokes the nazis conversation and rational debate almost always dies. It's like a fail safe. Godwin's Law always wins.

I think there's a fundamental difference between 'You know who else tried to silence their opponents using violence and intimidation? The Nazis!' and 'You know who else stood up for what they believed in? Hitler!' (Do a search on this thread for the word 'Hitler' if you want a handful of examples of people saying the latter.)

The violence and intimidation is an integral part of why we consider the Nazis to be terrible people. On the other hand, no-one ever says 'You know, the really terrible thing about Hitler was the way he stood up for what he believed in'. The fact that he did so had terrible consequences, but only because the things he believed in were fascist and psychopathic in themselves.

As a more extreme example, if a group was going round murdering Jews, gypsies and disabled people, and commenters called them Nazis, would you respond with 'oh no, you brought up Hitler - now we've lost any hope of rational debate'? Presumably not, because in that case the comparison is clearly apt. Godwin's Law only implies that people are often too quick to jump to the Hitler comparison, not that it's always wrong to do so.

Justanotherlurker · 03/02/2018 13:09

Either you think this sort of behaviour is unequivocally wrong or you don't - it's very straightforward.

Of course he doesn't hence why no comment on Mcdonnell and just selective quoting

MrsKateR · 03/02/2018 13:34

JRM is completely odious and his views are dangerous but thats all the more reason to let him air them. We cannot tackle these people if we dont let them speak up and be challenged. Let them be held accountable for their views - give them enough rope... I'm fed up with the whole momentum thing - its ruined the labour party for me. and as for that bloody glorified geography teacher in charge, he will not get elected and we'll never bring change. They revel in opposition.

Battleax · 03/02/2018 13:38

I agree OP. I'm not a fan of his but I don't have to be to a) Note that he was physically brace to insert himself between them mid brawl and b) Agree that violence has no place in political debate.

I have no idea why that would be controversial.

mothertruck3r · 03/02/2018 13:48

Privilege is a real phenomenon mainly afforded to white people. And I have no qualms in stating that to be a fact.

Tell that to all the "white" Jews forced to live in the Warsaw ghetto and then sent to their deaths in concentration camps. I guess they should have checked their privilege?

Also, how come all the slavery and apartheid against black Africans going on in places like Libya and Saudi Arabia never gets a mention yet white slavery which ended a while ago is constantly used to batter the current generation of all white people who have nothing to do with what other white people did years ago?

Sashkin · 03/02/2018 13:50

One of the activists have been outed, he is a labour / momentum supporter

There are over half a million Labour Party members, and over 35000 Momentum members. It wasn’t an official Labour demo. There are bound to be a couple of shouty prats in any group of that size. I’m sure this guy has a Tesco Clubcard too but it’s not really relevant is it?

JRM is an absolutely despicable person. He should be allowed to broadcast his awful views far and wide, because people are touting him as a future PM based solely on reading his witty twitter posts . He is an unashamed racist and homophobe, quite aside from his appalling views on women.

BertrandRussell · 03/02/2018 13:50

"Either you think this sort of behaviour is unequivocally wrong or you don't - it's very straightforward."
Hmm. Unequivocally wrong? What if the person attempting to speak is a member of the EDL?

Dapplegrey · 03/02/2018 13:53

Really? Once you have condemned the actions of people trying to disrupt the democratic process what more is there to say about “whT happened?
Bertrand would you be so quick to call an end to further discussion on this matter had the violent protesters been right wing?

Battleax · 03/02/2018 13:53

What if the person attempting to speak is a member of the EDL?

The point of an absolute is it doesn't vary with variables.

The Oxford Union managed to sit through Tommy whatsianame without brawling.

We've gone a bit too far down the road of thinking that words will hurt us.

grannytomine · 03/02/2018 13:54

I think he's an idiot and irresponsible. If anyone ended up getting hurt in the scuffle he is as much to blame as the protestors. He should have the maturity to step away or at least not go seeking trouble.

I bet the police and security men judge him, even though they can't say anything. He caused them some extra work.

Sashkin · 03/02/2018 13:57

Tell that to all the "white" Jews forced to live in the Warsaw ghetto

I’m sure you realise that Jewish people were not thought of as “white” at that time. Irish people were not considered “white” in the USA in the 1900s. Penelope Cruz has given interviews describing the weirdness of moving to Hollywood and being described as hispanic not white. Concepts of race are societal constructs, not biological ones, and do change from society to society as a result...

Justanotherlurker · 03/02/2018 13:57

he is as much to blame as the protestors

That is a severe case of mental gymnastics.

grannytomine · 03/02/2018 14:02

No it isn't. He should have let the people who are paid to deal with it do their jobs. He inflamed the situation, he made it more difficult for the people to do their jobs. He is an idiot.

BertrandRussell · 03/02/2018 14:02

"Bertrand would you be so quick to call an end to further discussion on this matter had the violent protesters been right wing?"

I wasn't calling an end to further discussion. I was just not clear wht direction further discussion could take. It seemed to me that what was being asked for was even more condemnation. As if those of us on the left needed to condemn it more. Happy to continue with any substantive discussion though.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 03/02/2018 14:02

Hmm. Unequivocally wrong? What if the person attempting to speak is a member of the EDL?

If a group of balaclava wearing, aggressive & shouty thickos did this to an EDL member (or any person who is affiliated with a legal group or cause) who was politely & calmly giving a speech then I would condemn those people too.
I don't think the EDL is proscribed is it?

Disagree, debate, call people out on the things they say or promote - all fine - we live in a democracy & freedom of speech & thought is an associated privilege.

Do you think that it's ok to act like that with some people & not others then Bertrand?

BertrandRussell · 03/02/2018 14:06

"Do you think that it's ok to act like that with some people & not others then Bertrand?"

I don't know. That's why I asked the question. I certainly think that there is an argument for stopping people advocating racism for example.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 03/02/2018 14:06

It seemed to me that what was being asked for was even more condemnation. As if those of us on the left needed to condemn it more.

Except that's not what had happened on this thread at all, is it.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 03/02/2018 14:07

I certainly think that there is an argument for stopping people advocating racism for example.

Because if you stop them from saying it out loud, it ceases to exist?

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