AIBU to ask why you for Brexit?

[BillySmut56]

I'm politically neautral on Brexit, it's a complicated issue, but I'm interested in the consequences that are coming out now. If you voted for Brexit, what were your reasons?

The NHS was not designed for the conditions we see now of much greater longevity and new and expensive treatments. One thing Theresa May could do would be to set up a cross party commission to look at that and social care; a commission which was not afraid to ask what sort of health and social care system we want and need, and what and how are we prepared to pay for it. Instead we get privatisation by stealth, but badged as still being the NHS.

I think Lurker is on to something regarding the Meedja , bit of conformation bias going on in all its forms , as a general rule the young tend to be left leaning , we encourage this as a country , we believe children should be nice and kind and inclusive , as they grow older we encourage critical thinking , this tends to be where the 'youth' split into its various factions , so for example if your Father is keen on wearing canary coloured or that strange hue of pink and yet not quite red ( ironic much ?) corduroy trousers , chances are you are going to vote conservative and become a teensy bit authoritarian in your thinking.

Subjective on the right wing media to be honest

What a cop out. These newspapers help form peoples opinions peddling the view and interests of the owner not the interests of the country. Mail Online gets millions of hits a day.

that strange hue of pink and yet not quite red ( ironic much ?) corduroy trousers

I think you mean FRTs. There are entire blogs devoted to these.

You could already "overrrule" politicians in Westminster and Brussels via elections No we cant, once a UK PM has signed us up to something in the EU (without asking our permission in an election) there is zero ability for us to elect a different party and reverse the decision, the EU does not allow it. That is why its undemocratic and why we are leaving.

Moussemoose You can take any individual component of the EU and claim its democratic. But democracy is more than the sum of its parts. The UK has laws enforced upon it by majorities in foreign countries, meaning the UK is no longer democratically accountable to its own people. IMO and that of many others, that is a loss of democracy. So you might not like the usage of the word but it is the reason why many people want to leave. So if you are genuinely interested in reversing Brexit then you need to address the substance of the reasons instead of just repeating your own dogma.

So before June 2016 , the EU didn't effect your day to day life , you, by your own admission didn't care either way Why do so many posters make stuff up. I didn't say that FFS. I said I didn't have a strong preference (leave or stay) before the referendum, I never said I didn't care. Events since the result have convinced me that leaving is the right choice. And I am worried about the state of our democracy with everything that has been happening since.

At best it can be claimed some are following the letter of the law not the spirit of democracy, at worst democracy is being subverted and we were lied to again. So yes I am very worried that this is the last chance the UK has to be an independent country and that is worth standing up for.

But when the banks use the same rhetoric during the last GE about Corbyn it was apparently scaremongering...

TBH, I'd be more perplexed about why a neo liberal Tory government is willing to sacrifice its beloved "city" on the altar of Brexit.

@FaithHopeCharityDesperation

That's right nobody said those words. We were referencing another thread and I was summarising the argument. I don't think anybody would read my post and think that was a verbatim quote. I was synthesising the argument. Clearly, that was my inference. Some posters believe calling a woman posting on politics "hysterical" is fine. I don't.

I hope that is nuanced enough for you.

The Remainers need to look far more deeply at the reasons why so many voted to leave

Yes you are right. We need to understand, what was from many, a cry for help. That is one of the reasons I am on these threads trying to understand why people voted the way they did. I have found in many cases people seem to think the EU is the cause of all our woes, an easy target. The claims about lack of democracy are nearly always a result of misunderstanding.

I passionately believe that the EU debate is forcing the argument away from the real causes of economic misery. As a left leaning liberal (small l) I despair of capitalism in the US form and think European social democracy is a better model.

once a UK PM has signed us up to something in the EU (without asking our permission in an election)

That's because we live in a representative democracy in which we in trust our elected representatives to make decisions on our behalf. This will still be the case after Brexit.

So yes I am very worried that this is the last chance the UK has to be an independent country and that is worth standing up for.

UK is independent although I'd be somewhat worried about NI and Scotland eventually cutting ties...

Peregrina the one thing in your statement I take exception to is the greater longevity , you see anyone who has a basic understanding of statistics and the idea that if you provide health and social care for a population the result will invariably be longevity , knows that this is not new shit , this shit has been coming at us for at least 40 fucking years . Successive governments have chosen to ignore this and pretend that OMG , people are actually having the bloody temerity to live a whole ten years longer than they did in the 70's , what are we going to do ???

I have now used up all my swears for the day , working in the NHS you need to ration them , otherwise risk a diagnosis !

What a cop out. These newspapers help form peoples opinions peddling the view and interests of the owner not the interests of the country. Mail Online gets millions of hits a day.

Or people seek out opinions that suit there narrative, the canary etc hasn't become popular for insightful content.

One of the reasons why the daily mail has so many hits is because they hit on the click bait nature before many others, they also get a lot of hits because of their sports content and celeb gossip/side bar of shame which is mainly used by women.

The fact you can pull up a bbc article from 2012 regarding a tory being derogatory to the working class and ignore the many,many opinion pieces and articles in the Guardian etc since the refernedum that imply the same rhetoric kind of proves the point.

We were referencing another thread and I was summarising the argument.

I know what you were referencing, & you summarised inaccurately.

Some posters believe calling a woman posting on politics "hysterical" is fine. I don't.

Nobody said 'a woman posting on politics is hysterical' - I did say that posters were posting in an hysterical way though.
It is entirely different.
I was posting about politics, I'm a woman - I do not think 'woman posting about politics equals hysterical'.

Typical hyperbole (and hysteria).

@Julie8008

I'm not repeating dogma I'm explaining constitutional political theory.

The UK has laws enforced upon it by majorities in foreign countries, meaning the UK is no longer democratically accountable to its own people

Please reference these laws. The second half of that sentence makes no sense. The U.K. parliament remains sovereign.

once a UK PM has signed us up to something in the EU (without asking our permission in an election)

UK PMs sign up to a treaty but it is not law until it is ratified by parliament. Therefore these treaties are part of our democratic process. Parliament agrees to many binding treaties - NATO for example.

Are you implying we need a referendum or a GE before a PM can sign a binding treaty? If you are you yet again display your total ignorance as to how representative democracy works.

Ghost believing that people are told their lives and opinions by one paper is what lost Labour election.
Simply not true.

Lurker,

opinions aren't formed in vacuums. Newspaper owners don't spend millions on their products because they enjoy crosswords. They do it as a means to peddle their own views and create influence. That is why politicians are queuing up to meet Murdoch. May went to Dacre's party - they know how much sway papers hold and how important it is to stay onside with certain publications

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-paul-dacre_uk_5a040795e4b03deac08b2d85

One of the reasons why the daily mail has so many hits is because they hit on the click bait nature before many others, they also get a lot of hits because of their sports content and celeb gossip/side bar of shame which is mainly used by women

Yes and its very easy to veer onto the headlines section - its on the homepage. Then there is the print editions, twitter, Facebook posts etc.

The link to the BBC article with in relation to workers rights/regulations post Brexit.

@FaithHopeCharityDesperation

Ok then I think saying a woman is posting in an hysterical way smacks of misogyny.

It's a problematical term especially when being used to dismiss or undermine forthright women. I'm sure when men claimed suffragettes were writing pamphlets in an hysterical way they didn't mean to dismiss or undermine them.

If you choose to ignore the history associated with the use of this term you can, but it exists and people will make judgments on your tone if you use it.

Ghost believing that people are told their lives and opinions by one paper is what lost Labour election.
Simply not true.

Nope didn't say that. Why don't you ask the Sun about their famous headline after the 1992 General Election though? You are naive if you think the media doesn't hold sway. We all like to think we pluck our views and ideas out of thin air but this isn't the case.

Moouse aren't you really listening though when people everywhere have said why they voted leave?
I don't think some people do.
It sounds patronising... A CRY for help, the eu is the cause of our woes when.... It's our own policies boo hoo...

I voted leave. I could argue just as much (with a sour taste in my mouth) for remain as voting leave. Personally I think people should acquaint themselves with both sides of the argument before making a decision which is why I cringe at some of the comments by posters on here who dominate these threads but seem unable in any shape or form to actually understand why some people voted leave

How would you feel if we don't leave the EU ? how will it effect your day to day living if we remain ? Before the referendum I wouldn't have cared either way.

Julie if someone says they don't care , you tend to assume they don't care ?

Ghost most of us live a life. Do things talk to people about it at work and home. A paper probably read at lunch very quickly... Is a small part of that whole picture.

I am stuck in a queue every day getting to work it takes me an hour not another route, mode of transport possible.

The guardian might tell me every day my route is free flowing and brilliant.

The mail may commiserate with me that my route is indeed shit.

Which paper will I read.

Agnes I am now going to waste time on FRT blogs , time I will never get back Although one does wonder if the fading is due to the housekeeper boil washing the piss stains out ? will investigate and update !

@SersioulycanitgetWORSE

We can't win. You claim no one listens or tries to engage. I'm listening to posters talking about anger and blaming elites in Europe while members of the British establishment urge them to vote leave so they can line their pocket.

Leave posters have said they voted as an expression of anger, when I say this is a cry for help I'm being patronising!

Any argument with a modicum of intellectual rigour is dismissed as patronising! I think debating with people as if they weren't stupid is the opposite of patronising. Expecting people to research and reference is the opposite of patronising. I assume you know your stuff, I'm asking questions so step up and answer. That is not patronising that's what grownups do. Or am I being patronising?

The mail may commiserate with me that my route is indeed shit.

Would it tell you honestly and objectively why the route was shit?

Moussemoose Very limited democracy in NATO compared to the EU Umm, that's why you have to be a democracy to be a NATO nation is it? That's why decisions taken in the NAC have to be unanimous. as opposed to the QMV now in place at the EU?

Peregrina Who is making the decisions in NATO? The North Atlantic Council, see here: www.nato.int/cps/ic/natohq/topics_49763.htm which comprises the Ambassadors to NATO and the Military Representatives to NATO.

Why are people happy to have a multinational American dominated organisation but not a European one, which would defend countries which are our neighbours? Because the US bankrolls NATO, whilst the majority of the European Nations, Germany as a case in point, do not meet their NATO financial commitments. The majority of the European nations are more than happy to let the US pay, whilst studiously avoiding their own obligations. Why do you think Guy Verhofstadt wrote that article in the DT whinging about us leaving because if defence and security? He was bricking it, because when we leave, the EU will be far less secure as they will lose access to the intelligence we provide via the Five Eyes (we are the only EU member state in the Five Eyes), and our military is functional but will only be available as part of NATO.

Moussemoose What about the Acquis though...that is binding surely?

The Acquis Communautaire is the accumulated body of European Union (EU) law and obligations from 1958 to the present day. It comprises all the EU's treaties and laws (directives, regulations, decisions), declarations and resolutions, international agreements and the judgments of the Court of Justice. It also includes action that EU governments take together in the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice and under the Common Foreign and Security Policy.
New EU Member States must accept all the existing acquis - some elements of it during a transitional period - and put in place mechanisms to adopt future elements of the acquis.
The Court of Justice has ruled that the EU acquis takes precedence over national law if there is a conflict, and that the acquis may have direct effect in the Member States.

That's because we live in a representative democracy in which we in trust our elected representatives to make decisions on our behalf
Great dictionary definition, but if that was a contract it could be overturned in a court if you could prove one party lied about the terms and conditions. For example TB promised us a referendum, people voted on basis of referendum, TB then signed us up to more EU without a referendum. So where was the democracy? or do you believe democracy does not need to be based on the truth?

Moussemoose, I'm not repeating dogma I'm explaining constitutional political theory So your saying as long as its a democracy in theory it doesn't matter what happens in practice? If the UK wants change, votes for change and has to ask the EU (only to be told no). Then the UK does not have democratic ability to effect its own laws and is being controlled by foreign governments/parliaments. And that doesn't seem to be about to change no matter how many bows or theories you wrap it in.