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Original poster

Why do people think the government is some form of parent?

251 replies

soddingsoda · 29/01/2018 20:38

I've spent a lot of time in the US, i'm British but have a fair amount of family in the US.

While there's obviously huge social issues in the US, and I feel fortunate to be British I'm just not a fan of the British mentality. Someone said something the other day and it hit the nail on the head: If an American employee sees his boss turn up in a Mercedes he'll be envious and it will inspire him. The same situation happens in the UK the employee would be spiteful and call it unfair.

I have a second job working behind a bar once a week. Quite often when punters have had a drink they love to rant about the system. One woman 'debating' with the others then pointed to me. Apparently if there wasn't any foreigners over here I would be able to a council house. She seemed pretty stumped when I told her that it wasn't the governments responsibility to house me, I'm healthy, young, able to work and choose to live at home so I can save for a deposit and go travelling and spent a shit ton on starbucks.

Someone also had a conversation that she's had tooth ache for over a year as she needs a filling. She feels that she shouldn't have to pay for it as she pays taxes. I really wanted to point out that if she wasn't down the pub every week paying £3.50 a pint, she could easily pay for that filling within a month.

It's just really starting to grate on me, we live in such a privileged society where we get a free education, everyone has access to a fairly good health service and we have so many opportunities. I just want to give a good shake to some people and tell them to take responsibilities for their own lives as they're adults and that's what adults are meant to do.

OP posts:
clumsyduck · 30/01/2018 00:25

Iv literally never met anyone like this

MrsTerryPratchett · 30/01/2018 00:32

it isn't some hell hole of misery and starvation for all but the few

No, but it does have:

2 million homeless people.
2 million+ incarcerated.
Almost 5 million on parole or probation.

12% have no health insurance.
11,000 gun homicides per year.
Mass killings every couple of weeks.
9 million households unbanked.
$1 trillion in credit card debt.

The UK is far from perfect. But the idea that all people have to do is pull themselves up by the bootstraps is ridiculous. Social mobility is far higher in Scandinavia and Canada than the US. The US sells the myth of the American dream but has long since pulled the ladder up. High on inequality, low social mobility. The UK is pretty terrible on these measures too but at least we're not pretending that we are.

Julie8008 · 30/01/2018 00:34

windchimesabotage
Completely agree, unfortunately when you try to talk about it in the UK a lot of people automatically decide you cant ask anyone to have anyone personal responsibility because there will be someone somewhere who need help and its not fair.

Like its some sort of choice between free everything for everyone and killing off anyone who is old or ill.

Most humans usually have the ability to consider the context and circumstances. Or do you think there should be no consequences to any action ever and everyone should have what ever they want no matter the cost.

Original poster
Soddingsoda · 30/01/2018 00:34

windchimesabotage

The thing is is that people in this country do already get that. If their parents don't have enough money to send them to school, they got to state school like the rest of the 95% of the children in this country. If they get ill they get the same treatment as every other child (except the few that have private) but usually if any child involved in an emergency they go to a NHS A&E.

Most children have exactly the same start in life of the basic human rights and then some but it's the mentality of the parents that hinder their life outcomes. Change that mentality of the 'American dream' and think how successful our kids would be? I live in Cambridge and train with a lot of Cambridge students- you'd think they would all be privately educated middle to upper kids. Most of them aren't and 95% are extremely humble and aware of their privilege. It's funny to watch how a lot of them change when their lad mates arrive from the Welsh Valleys and you can't understand what they're saying, or we bump into their visiting parents in 'spoons. I recently had a conversation with a bunch of them over predrinks about how working in retail is hellish etc. Normal kids who've had parents install a hard working mentality as that's the only way to get into Oxbridge.

Life isn't fair. It never has been nor will be but honestly it doesn't get much better than living in Britain.

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 30/01/2018 00:44

So you want individuals to be aspirational but countries not to be?

blankets4ever · 30/01/2018 00:48

Michael Moore commented that when touring Scandinavian countries he noticed people framed discussions on 'what we can do for society.' America is predicated on I.

The UK govt policies are taking us down the path to the US model. No thanks.

HelenaDove · 30/01/2018 00:49

Well from what ive seen you will get your wish OP Tent cities wont just be a US phenomenon soon.

SuperBeagle · 30/01/2018 00:54

The UK govt policies are taking us down the path to the US model. No thanks.

The US and UK have been living virtually parallel existences since Reagan and Thatcher. The difference is simply that the NHS etc. predates the rise in neoliberalism, thereby making it harder to dismantle it. The US never had any such system, so there was never anything to dismantle.

Neither are countries I'd want to be living in 2018. Same shit, different accent.

ginghambox · 30/01/2018 00:57

vive la revolution. Is that you Jeremy.
Lives cost nothing. Bullets?

blankets4ever · 30/01/2018 00:58

@SuperBeagle, you are right.

Skowvegas · 30/01/2018 01:21

Michael Moore commented that when touring Scandinavian countries he noticed people framed discussions on 'what we can do for society.' America is predicated on I.

Having lived all over America I disagree. I've never lived anywhere that has so many people who contribute to their communities.

MrsGloop · 30/01/2018 01:44

Skowvegas I agree entirely. I don’t think I know a single able-bodied adult who does not volunteer or contribute to their community in some capacity, whether it’s coaching a child’s baseball team, cub scouts/Girl Scouts, meal prep in homeless shelters, etc. By contrast, only one person of my extended large family in the UK does anything to help anyone other than himself. A common thread is “I’m not working if I’m not being paid for it.”

BertrandRussell · 30/01/2018 01:55

Generalizing, it’s a good thing to be bright here. In the UK, it seems something to be embarrassed about and bright kids are often bullied. Appalling!"
Not as much as non- bright kids are........

HelenaDove · 30/01/2018 01:59

This thread is the biggest pile of cognitive dissonance ive ever read on here.

Julie8008 · 30/01/2018 02:00

Michael Moore commented that when touring Scandinavian countries he noticed people framed discussions on 'what we can do for society.' America is predicated on I.

So what can we do for society is ok but what can I do for society is not. Confused

Skowvegas · 30/01/2018 02:50

This thread is the biggest pile of cognitive dissonance ive ever read on here.

Yes - people certainly seem to be struggling with having their preconceptions challenged.

OlennasWimple · 30/01/2018 03:26

In my part of the US, at least, there’s very much a sense of “if not us, then who?” In the UK I think the response would be “the council” (or government/school/whomever.)

This was exactly my experience in the US, and at first it was odd because it was so alien, but actually it's incredibly refreshing to be in a place where people just make things happen.

No, the US isn't perfect. But there are some really really great things about it that we would do well to emulate in the UK. The sense of obligation of those who have done well, for example: charitable giving there makes the handful of coins that most of us jangle in the occasional collecting box look downright embarassing

OtterInDisgrace · 30/01/2018 03:49

Yeah right, bollocks, op. Have one of these Biscuit

treaclesoda · 30/01/2018 03:56

When I look round me I do see a bit of the attitude that everything is for the government to sort out. In some ways I agree. In that I think the government should take measures to ensure that citizens have somewhere to live. Not that it should be free, but that some form of safe dry warm housing should be accessible to everyone. On the other hand, I believe people need to take responsibility for their own eating habits and suchlike.

The comments on community and volunteering are interesting. I think people in the UK are often reluctant to muck in but partly because everything has to be very formal. I've seen threads on mumsnet where people warn against eg parents lift sharing to extra curricular activities or school because they are afraid of the consequences if there were an accident, or because they believe you can't do so without having criminal record checks etc.

The comment about going to nightschool in the US is interesting too. I can't speak for the whole of the UK but certainly where I live, the opportunity to better your career through night classes is pretty limited. The local college does lots of hobby classes, and Maths and English GCSEs but nothing much that would help on a career path. No computing (apart from basics for people who have never used a computer), or accountancy, or HR, or engineering. And no paying in installments for your course either. Are things different in the US? Are these things more accessible?

However, I'm bemused by the idea that the UK isn't somewhere that people feel the need to work harder and earn more. Work and career are the absolute obsession for most people, myself included. You are judged by your job, by your income and competitive long hours are the absolute norm for many people. It's not enough to have a job and go to work and earn a salary, you have to be perceived to be working your fingers to the bone, doing longer hours than everyone else, always ready to drop everything for work etc or else you're just lazy. It's toxic.

Skowvegas · 30/01/2018 04:23

The comment about going to nightschool in the US is interesting too. I can't speak for the whole of the UK but certainly where I live, the opportunity to better your career through night classes is pretty limited. The local college does lots of hobby classes, and Maths and English GCSEs but nothing much that would help on a career path. No computing (apart from basics for people who have never used a computer), or accountancy, or HR, or engineering. And no paying in installments for your course either. Are things different in the US? Are these things more accessible?

Yes - typically when you do a degree there will be a variety of classes at different times available for each credit (subject). It's to make it possible for people to get further education but fit it in with the rest of their life.

I looked into doing a masters and I would have had classes one day and one evening a week. It's very common to get your degree while holding down a part-time or full-time job.

You can take out loans to pay your fees, and although private universities are very expensive, state universities and community colleges are much more affordable, plus often your employer will subsidise the cost.

I have lots of friends who've gone back to college while also still working. One is in her 50s and is retraining as a nurse.

makeourfuture · 30/01/2018 06:42

The question is silly.

It's a social contract.

peachgreen · 30/01/2018 07:08

I'd rather have a small number of people exploiting the system - and it IS a small number, despite what the right wing media would have you believe - than see the kind of widespread, abject, inhumane poverty - the likes of which we simply do not see in the UK precisely because of our welfare system, flawed as it is - faced by whole communities in the US.

Thesmallthings · 30/01/2018 07:18

I actually think it's the governments place to look after their people... that's why we have them surely... a leader for our community to keep us safe and alive?

Maybe if there was a living minimum wage and fairer rules for landlords we wouldn't need the benifit system.

I'd rarther live with the mentatitky we help our fellow human supposed to every out for their self which is how I think America is at times.

Thesmallthings · 30/01/2018 07:20

Is say that as some one who was on benifits but now working 2 jobs and studying to further my carear and get better pay.

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