to be sick of all the man/boy hate.

[churchoflego]

What the hell is going on? Men are not the devil. Boys are not the devil. I have sons and all I read is how as white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan. When did males become the enemy? Surely there are good and bad individuals who happen to be male or female?

I was horribly bullied at school by females and again at work by females, however, I don't consider all females to be evil. They were horrible individuals who happened to be female.

It's really depressing and scary.

Good, but on male-dominated forums this issue is not discussed at all

Are you reading your posts

How in the hell does that make sense

Are you telling me that because male dominated forums dont discuss it then people on mumsnet cant

Why do i give a shiny shit what is discussed on other forums

C'mon i know you cant possibly mean that

ForestDad you’re not making a wider point, ‘men are victims too’ has been said a thousand times on this thread and every other one like it. It’s is the most predictable shut-down when male violence is being discussed, as if anyone is disagreeing with it. We are not. We are saying men commit the majority of violence.

YOU chose the 113 fact out of all the others I quoted in that post, you are the one who picked that out - not to discuss, but to minimise. And you’re still doing it, poor healthcare and accidents affect more people than violence - so start your own thread about how you could stop people getting ill or have an accident. You can’t! But you CAN do something about male violence, however trivial those figures seem to you.

Out of interest, where would YOU focus the efforts and have a bigger impact?

And youre not being shouted at

Dont be silly

Would it be acceptable to start saying Afro-Caribbean youths as a class?

Would it help?
It would yes, if it was Afro-Caribbean youths who were overwhelmingly committing a crime against one particular group.

The overwhelming majority of stabbings in London are committed by black boys and young men against each other. Does that make them a "class"?

mental

Pumper i am sure ForestDad is not responsible for the acts of those nasty men. those individual men and the fathers who raised (or maybe didn't) raise them are responsible.... do not put a burden on an innocent non violent man's shoulder.

part of the problem? a non violent man like Forest Is part of the problem how? i am white. and non racist. i do not consider it my responsibility to end racism. that is the racists' responsibility.

So you wouldn’t challenge racism if you saw it? That’s a real shame. You could have a real impact if you did. Same as if all men took responsibility for male violence and absolutely made it abundantly clear than any violence (boys will be boys, hit him back ten times harder, man up etc etc) would be challenged.

Statistically men are more violent

I think francine prefers that to 'class'

Francine, maybe take your racism elsewhere? You're being facetious. (Or goady, as it is called here.)

Im going to bed

Films finished

Not the book

Night

Francine I’ve answered that question twice now and you’ve ignored mine. How about you go back and answer it instead of asking me the same question over and over but with a different race or religion in place. It doesn’t change my answer.

And for safety, women must assume that all males have the potential to be sex offenders

And for safety, white people must assume that all Afro-Caribbean youths have the potential to stab you.

And for safety, passengers must assume that all Muslim taxi drivers have the potential to be paedophiles.

Is that helpful?

Pumper I would (and actually have) challenge(ed) racism. but i would not consider it my responsibility because i am white. i would say ALL races have a responsibility to challenge racism and all races can have an impact in challenging it. racism is the responsibility of white, brown, black etc. all of us. ditto sexism. we women can make just as much an impact and challenge sexism too. we are responsible too to teach our sons, brothers, etc to treat women well. we can start by not complaining when they open doors for us! :)

Rufus, no that's not what I meant(!)

What I meant was that despite men being more likely to be a victim of male violence than women, there are not internet forums buzzing with this information and clamouring to stop it (happy to be corrected on that if anyone knows.)

Pumper, to be honest I haven't read the whole thread so may have missed some of your other referenced posts.
Never said they were trivial numbers, just smaller.
Repeating the same statement that men commit the majority of violence isn't going to lead to anything though either is it?

I'm really not trying to shut down any debate and I do think if we were having this chat over a coffee then we would agree but the nature of forums tends to create discord.
I recently wanted to do some more volunteering with another charity which works with families, sadly work commitments have prevented me from doing so this time. There are some people in my extended family who need a bit of help at the moment. So I guess that's where I would focus my efforts if I could.

Same question back to you?

we can also teach our daughters, sisters etc to be assertive and strong and learn to defend ourselves. to stop being so "nice" and start avoiding men or situations where men make us feel uncomfortable. we can make sure we travel in pairs or more when we can, and carry pepper spray. we can campaign for better public transport at night etc

Pumper
I've gone back and read your threads. I apologise if I have missed, but nowhere do I see you give a clear, concise definition of what you mean by men as a class". A pp explained that it does not mean men as a group*

What does it mean?

Telling violent men to stop it now once they have become violent by habit may not work. it my experience abusers don';t changer because someone tells them to stop. and i have much experience of abuse, sadly. like a lot of women on here.

ForestDad no, you said the efforts should be focussed elsewhere for a bigger impact and I wanted to know what that ‘elsewhere’ was.

I would focus on male violence, personally. I think that would have a massive impact.

I am asking why it is acceptable to say "men as a class when most fair, rational people would agree that it would quite rightly be condemned* racist and antisemitic to say "blacks as a class" or "Jews as a class"

Francine

You say ‘despicable’ - yet your contribution to this thread was to ignore the fact that 113 women were killed by men in 2016, that 78% of violent crimes were committed by men, that 98% of sex crimes were committed by men. Why is using ‘men as a class’ worthy of comment by you, but not the totally horrific facts we have on male violence?

we can also teach our daughters, sisters etc to be assertive and strong and learn to defend ourselves. to stop being so "nice" and start avoiding men or situations where men make us feel uncomfortable. we can make sure we travel in pairs or more when we can, and carry pepper spray. we can campaign for better public transport at night etc

Sounds pretty victim blamey to me this mind.

You seem extremely concerned about what people should be teaching girls to end male violence.

I am asking why it is acceptable to say "men as a class when most fair, rational people would agree that it would quite rightly be condemned racist and antisemitic to say "blacks as a class" or "Jews as a class"*

If 98% of burglaries were committed by black people, I (and many others) would have no issue saying, when talking about burglaries that its primarily black people who commit them. As such, I have no issue saying violence is overwhelmingly a male problem.

Pumper
The violence against women is despicable. I fully accept, acknowledge and condemn the violence against women by men.

Is that clear to you?

Could you now please explain *what specifically do you mean by the phrase men as a class?"

If it is so obvious, it should be easy for you to do so.

mental

we can also teach our daughters, sisters etc to be assertive and strong and learn to defend ourselves. to stop being so "nice" and start avoiding men or situations where men make us feel uncomfortable. we can make sure we travel in pairs or more when we can, and carry pepper spray. we can campaign for better public transport at night etc

So it’s definitely not the responsibility of non-violent men to stop male violence but it is the responsibility of our daughters and sisters?

*And for safety, white people must assume that all Afro-Caribbean youths have the potential to stab you.

And for safety, passengers must assume that all Muslim taxi drivers have the potential to be paedophiles.

Is that helpful?*

It's helpful in the sense that it's clear you're a racist with an agenda.

OnTheList
What does "as a class" mean?

Francine that wasn’t my question though, was it? My question was - Why are you ignoring the stats on this thread and instead making a weird point about the semantics used when we talk about class analysis?