to be sick of all the man/boy hate.

[churchoflego]

What the hell is going on? Men are not the devil. Boys are not the devil. I have sons and all I read is how as white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan. When did males become the enemy? Surely there are good and bad individuals who happen to be male or female?

I was horribly bullied at school by females and again at work by females, however, I don't consider all females to be evil. They were horrible individuals who happened to be female.

It's really depressing and scary.

Night mrs

Excellent

so let's do absolutely nothing and let the whole thing continue because the the "class" of men are to blame

really off to bed and thoroughly depressed by some of you

so let's do absolutely nothing

Sorry who said we shouldn do this

What was it you were suggesting we do

Modify girls behavior?

Thats how i was reading your posts but i may well have the wrong end of the stick

Noone said "do absolutely nothing" mrs. We just thought your strategy of starting with the 7 and 8 year old girls' behaviour might be slightly flawed as a long-term solution.

I'm sorry you feel depressed that some of us think the solution to this problem may lie with men. Maybe you don't think they are up for it? I suppose some women experience only deeply inadequate men and we must respect their experience - although honestly, many men are just great. I have a wonderful father, husband and son so I have every confidence in men myself - once we start addressing the real problem.

pallisers

I appreciate that my boys are very much cleverer than most boys (they are hiding it so as not to upset their peers) and more beautiful

But they seem to have grasped the whole 'treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself ' concept

Can't obviously guarantee that they will remain angels for ever but I think we have laid the groundwork well

What is perplexing is that the “girls are divas” argument seems to be trotted out as a response when talking about male violence as if one negates the other and “hey, nothing to see here, we’re all as bad as each other!”

But the problem is that the two aren’t as bad as each other. Being a vain entitled “as if” princess may well be irritating in the extreme but it’s in no way comparable to rape, assault, violence or indeed sticking your hand up someone’s skirt.

And if you pay attention you’ll see that it’s often the same people who enforce both the “man up”/“princess” bullshit. I know quite a few families who in one breath will tell their son to “man up”, observe the “man code” (of not gossiping) and “don’t be a girl!” just moments after telling their daughter that she is a “gorgeous princess”.

It’s a sop. The same old angel-in-the-house shit they were pulling in the 19th century.

ifyousee I’ve personally never heard those two ideas equated before but trust that it does happen. I can’t get on board with seeing my son or his gf as members of a class. I just see their individual behaviour. And if he displays any sexist or generally twattish behaviour it gets nipped in the bud by me tearing numerous strips off him!

I have 2 sons

I think if we raise them right things will get better in the future

My boys are NOT going to be attending president club! My 9 year old already knows about sexism

We just need to get rid of the social media ! Ha !!!

I dislike the whole class analysis thing, especially when followed by ‘I love my sons and husband, it has nothing to do with that’. Far too close to people saying Jewish people are cheats but I am not racist because I have Jewish friends.

Saying men are responsible for most violence is similar to saying men are responsible for the vast majority of global wealth and scientific advances. Both are objectively true but neither looks at the reasons behind it, thus neither are helpful statements.

There are a wealth of factors, including hormones, behind it.

There are a wealth of factors, including hormones, behind it.

I’m so glad you said that Larry. I’m not knowledgable/smart enough to debate these issues to any meaningful extent but it has always struck me that hormonal imperatives are rarely mentioned in the debate

larry I would argue that making people aware that most violence is committed by men is more helpful than saying ‘not all men’ and shutting the discussion down in case your nice husband is offended.

There are a wealth of factors, including hormones, behind it.

By this do you mean that hormones make men more violent? Could you provide some evidence for this please? I’d love to read up on this.

"There are a wealth of factors, including hormones, behind it."

Hmm. This is verging towards "It's not my fault" surely? Obviously I realise that not all-or even most men are violent. But most violent people are men. And "male culture" has violence at its core. And men need to acknowledge this and call each other out on it.

Interesting article here:

www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-testosterone-alone-doesnt-cause-violence/

Which is to say, are high-testosterone males more likely to become violent criminals, or does being a violent criminal raise a man's level of testosterone?
No one really knows the answer, but a growing body of evidence suggests that testosterone is as much the result of violence as its cause.

Bertrand it could but I don’t believe the comment was meant as an excuse. To take another albeit less serious example, my hormones cause PMT which makes me snappy. But I need to stop myself from snapping as it’s unpleasant and unfair, so I’ll hide myself away when I feel like that. I would never use “well I’ve got PMT” as a reason for poor behaviour.

I also hate the 'girls are divas', 'entitled princess' lines in this context, as it certainly isn't comparable to male violence, and is suspiciously like blaming women and girls for provoking male violence. Men who commit dv or sexual assault often do this.

I can’t get on board with seeing my son or his gf as members of a class.

But Peppered they are members of a class whether you like it or not! And will have been treated as part of different classes from birth, perhaps not by you but by others, and by their biology!

Feminists want to dismantle that class barrier. They want individuals to be seen as individuals and not part of a class because that’s the whole point!!

But you can’t break down walls if you don’t admit the walls are there in the first place.

I find Rosa Luxemburg to be very helpful regarding these sorts of issues:

www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1976/women/4-luxemburg.html

ifyousee i completely agree and think my point about my son’s gf’s upbringing recognises that, what i mean is that I only operate at an individual level. Ref my comment re the dating thread. I would not expect “a” man to pay for me because there is a pay gap between me as a woman and “men”.

I would not expect “a” man to pay for me because there is a pay gap between me as a woman and “men”.

Well quite. But I don’t think that was a common view on the dating thread. And it’s certainly not a very feminist view. The feminist view would be to analyse and dismantle the wage gap by looking at the root causes. And you can’t do that without some level of class analysis.

Operating at an individual level is fantastic (and the dream!) as long as you have an even playing field. Which we don’t either socially or biologically. As one wise MNer said: “women are the breeders and feeders of society so need special legislation to ensure they don’t miss out on stuff”.

ifyousee
That MN quote is a perfect way to sum it!

ifyousee

I like it

actually what I said is that many boys and girls are being brought up badly - the boys being told to "man up" and the girls being "princesses".

Both of these widen the gap and understanding between the sexes.

At no point did I blame the girls for being raped and murdered and tell them to modify their behaviour.

Yes I did say that boys this young were hacked off because many girls were getting away with their awful entitled behaviour - at no point did I say that give them an excuse to attack women and girls. Merely that by not giving children equal opportunities and equal understanding of right and wrong is going to cause trouble and yes it is and continues to do so. And will not change unless we do something about it!

mrs

At no point did I blame the girls for being raped and murdered and tell them to modify their behaviour

Just to clear up any possible confusion at no time did i say you did

mrsmrsmrs

But look at your own posts, look at the language you are using:

Also, seeing alot of the girls' behaviour (spoilt) and the boys' reactions to them getting away with so much the boys are starting to be hacked off by a young age

many girls getting away with awful entitled behaviour

manipulative

• it doesn’t seem to me you have a high opinion of girls at all. I can’t see the correlation between spoiled girl and violent men, I’m totally missing your point. Children should be children, yes, they should be given equal opportunities, they shouldn’t be forced into a gender ‘box’ - but I can’t see how not raising your daughter as a princess will stop male violence.