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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be sick of all the man/boy hate.

710 replies

churchoflego · 24/01/2018 09:55

What the hell is going on? Men are not the devil. Boys are not the devil. I have sons and all I read is how as white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan. When did males become the enemy? Surely there are good and bad individuals who happen to be male or female?

I was horribly bullied at school by females and again at work by females, however, I don't consider all females to be evil. They were horrible individuals who happened to be female.

It's really depressing and scary.

OP posts:
LeCroissant · 24/01/2018 16:48

I hardly think you can describe the millions of men who assault, maim, rape and murder others every year as 'emotionless' - clearly they are filled with negative emotions that they can't control.

JemimaHolm · 24/01/2018 16:50

Actually, pumper, I don't think she is joking. I know people who think this IRL.

Idontdowindows · 24/01/2018 16:56

Have you ever worked with a man? Or met one?

probably is one, I can't imagine women actually believing this stuff and thinking it's good.

FurCoatFurKnickers · 24/01/2018 17:35

I was going to post a well considered response but I can't be arsed wasting time on a GF first time poster/chickenshit namechanger like the OP.

to be sick of all the man/boy hate.
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 24/01/2018 17:39

OP is a name changer/first time poster?????

Really!!!

No!!!

Lizzie48 · 24/01/2018 17:55

Have you ever seen a man overcome with 'road rage'?? Definitely not emotionless. Even my normally mild mannered DH swears at other drivers sometimes. Grin

BertrandRussell · 24/01/2018 18:05

Mumsnet is full of women telling other women not to mind because men are like that/compartmentalise/have the emotional range of teaspoons/will interact more with the baby when it's older/just can't understand the significance of birthdays, Christmas, or Valentine's Day/just can't cook, clean or wake up to babies/can't pee without leaving piss on the seat. I honestly don't think it's feminists who think men are shit!

KOKOagainandagain · 24/01/2018 18:05

I am surprised that no one explicitly talks about power as it is organised in existing society.

Who has the most structural power (evidenced by pay, position etc) in the past 50 (or less) years worldwide?

Men or women?

White or non-white?

Power defines what 'crimes' count - benefit crime or 'white collar' crime or even war crime?

Also men are not a 'class' - they are a category.

Class has a specific meaning relating to place in the economic organisation of society. Let's not lose this.

Men and women can occupy the same class position but do not share gender categories.

The world view of men and women are not therefore 'naturally' opposed and both men and women can be opposed to the misuse of power to justify sexism or racism.

BertrandRussell · 24/01/2018 18:07

The power thing is interesting. Men have the power to end a lot of the inequality between the sexes today if they wanted to. But it would mean relinquishing some of their power.

KOKOagainandagain · 24/01/2018 18:13

Bertrand - not all men are equal and not all women are equal. Power is more than sex, it is structural. And structural power is not purely based on sex. Structurally powerless men cannot end societal sexual inequality.

BertrandRussell · 24/01/2018 18:27

There are thing that all men, regardless of their individual power could do to redress the balance.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 24/01/2018 18:33

Yeah, the amount of times I see posts like 'aw they don't see dirt, bless em' as if men are fucking 3 year olds. Its ridiculous.

I think many men perhaps don't see dirt because they don't HAVE to see it...they know full well that women will come behind them to tidy and clean. They have grown up thinking it is women's work, so close their eyes to it.

OP, today in NI an elderly woman jumped out of a window to escape burglars who were ransacking her house. She is seriously injured in hospital. There were four burglars altogether. Now, tell me, when you picture these burglars, are they men or women? I can guarantee you have formed an image of four big, frightening men terrorizing one lone woman in her own home. So do YOU hate men? Or are you just being honest with yourself about the behaviour of untold numbers of men around us?

And of course, the four burglars were male. Still feel like wringing your hands about poor men while that elderly, and by all accounts lovely, woman lies in her hospital bed?

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 24/01/2018 18:34

The first paragraph should be bold...I can never get that right!!🤔

KOKOagainandagain · 24/01/2018 18:44

But then we are back to all men and it makes it sound like personal choice.

We know that it is not just about race and class because there are lots of non-white and economically disadvantaged men that are sexist but recent cases evidence that there are also lots
of white economically advantaged white sexists.

I prefer to blame patriarchal ideology that harms both men and women.

BertrandRussell · 24/01/2018 18:46

"I prefer to blame patriarchal ideology that harms both men and women."

Yes of course it does. But individuals help to keep it shored up.

KOKOagainandagain · 24/01/2018 18:50

So who benefits from a patriarchal ideology?

Is it the same group that benefit from a racist ideology?

Is that really all men or all white people?

Lizzie48 · 24/01/2018 18:51

Actually, LastGirlOnTheLeft, I absolutely agree with you. My DH gets really cheesed off by the implication that men can't do practical things. He also gets wound up by the suggestion that men can't multitask, only women can. Men definitely don't need infantilising at all, they're as capable of doing so-called 'women's work' as women are.

KOKOagainandagain · 24/01/2018 18:51

I am a white woman but my existence does not shore up a racist ideology.

BertrandRussell · 24/01/2018 18:52

"So who benefits from a patriarchal ideology?"
All men. And many women feel they do too. Hence the need for consciousness raising.

LeCroissant · 24/01/2018 18:54

Your existence doesn't shore up a racist ideology but a lack of action to tackle a racist ideology would. No matter what your situation is, you benefit on some level from being white. If you don't acknowledge that/do anything to change the status of people who don't have that benefit then you're shoring up the racist system.

BertrandRussell · 24/01/2018 18:55

If you don't challenge racism every single time then you are shoring up racism.

Firesuit · 24/01/2018 18:59

There is no difference between saying "men" and "men as a class", both mean the same thing. Saying that by "men" you mean "men as a class" is not a defence if you are making derogatory and insulting remarks about men.

I was taught that it was wrong to make any derogatory or insulting remark about any group (or "class".) And, pay attention, this is important: it is irrelevant whether the derogatory remark or insult is true. In fact it's probably worse if it's true, as the insult will be harder to shrug off.

You shouldn't say things about (for example) blacks, Catholics or Jews that they find insulting, even if what you are saying is true of many of them. The same applies to statements about "men" or "women."

People who talk about problems caused by "men" or any similar phrase are in the exact same moral category as racists. Even if more than half of men are guilty of the problem in question.

Leaving aside whether or not you want to be a bigot, there is also a question of truth. Something is not a property of a group unless it is a typical characteristic of a group. If fewer than half of men are rapists, you shouldn't use "men" as shorthand for rapists, for example.

KOKOagainandagain · 24/01/2018 19:00

That is the complexity - both men and women are harmed by AND may benefit from a patriarchal ideology (dependent on other class/race/ability etc components).

KOKOagainandagain · 24/01/2018 19:09

Agreed - whether male or female you challenge sexist ideology every time.

Plus, if you are male, no matter what your situation is you benefit, on some level, from being male.

Well saidSmile

Ploppymoodypants · 24/01/2018 19:13

Sorry if this has been mentioned, only read half this thread. But has anyone read/seen about the David Williams party. The men only one where there were over 100 women only hostess who were groped etc. There is a live thread about it. Quite rightly people are very angry.

It’s been all over the news. But where are all the #notallmen getting angry about it. There were over 100 men at that event and none of them jumped up and said stop harassing these women it’s awful. They all accepted the invitation to attend. I bet I would struggle to find a male dominated forum where they are all debating how awful it is. Would be v happy to be proved wrong.

So no it’s not all men. Lots of men are lovely and try to be lovely. But toxic masculinity is so great that they don’t often recognise their own behaviours or those of friends for what they are.

I have posted about this before. But I went on a domestic abuse alliance course for schools, hospitals, police etc about awareness of domestic abuse and rape culture among the high school and university generations. And we were shown an advert dipicting a baby girl from birth up to mid twenties and all the examples of when she could be at risk from men. Think cat calling, perv on a bus, a flasher, then her jealous boyfriend, a one nightstand making her do more than she wanted etc. And you could immediately tell from the (mostly white female ages 30-50 audience) who had sons. They were sooooo offended and immediately starting on about ‘their sons would NEVER do that’ and my son is 15 and would never watch porn etc. And these were women who were clued up and work with victims everyday. But there was absolute flat out denial/acknowledgement that their sons would ever ever do anything negative towards a girl.

I Also sit in an office with a number of lovely women (good friends) with equally lovely teenage sons. But oh to hear them moaning about the evil clingy girlfriends who don’t let the poor boys off the leash etc. Or ten terrible teenage girls making false accusations against one of their sins friends and ‘ruining his life’. Never occurs to them the girl might be telling the truth. Now whilst I am sure there is an element of truth in it all, I am also witnessed one of these lovely boys push his girlfriend in a pub after a row and then end up snogging the face off someone else in front of her. I Also stayed over at a friends after a night out and slept in her sons room (different boy, he was at his girlfriends house and knew I was staying there) and turned on the tv to find PlayStation on and set to some pretty questionable porn. This is a mum who thinks her son is oh so innocent and his girlfriend pressured him into sex and a relationship and really he is just her little boy who wants to play fifa. Now again there is some truth in that I am sure. But there is a tendnacy for mums of boys (in my small case study ) to be in denial about the power of the negative influences of toxic masculinity in their sons. I think men are taught by other men at a very early age to present differently in front of women they love and respect, to how they would behave on a boys nights of in front of women they see as sexual objects. (Think ‘don’t talk like that in front of your mother’ sort of thing. Where actually it should be ‘don’t talk like that’ )

I find that mothers of girls tend to be a bit more realistic about the negative parts of their teenagers growing up and are more likely to acknowledge them and thus address them. (Appreciate girls can be just as demanding and difficult).

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