To be furious teachers keep sitting 'naughty' kids next to my 'angelic' DC

[Flaky]

So he is then upset by them being mean to him and doesn't want to go to school?

This is at least the 3rd occasion a kid like this has been moved next to him.

Last year the teacher admitted that she had done it so DS's good influence rubs off but why should he suffer for it?

He's the youngest in the class as well (Yr2)and some of these DC are almost a whole year older.

Isn't this just very lazy teaching?

Hippee: But what if it is stopping her from being on the table with the kids who are creative, innovative, pushing boundaries, working beyond what is written on the page, playing with the equipment and seeing what happens if you put the electrodes on something else and if her time spent teaching someone else where the boundaries are could be spent exploring beyond her own boundaries instead? It wouldn't stop her being a teacher.... but it might open her up to a host of other options..

And tbh I'm unsure why people are just assuming it's a choice between sticking the kids in a cage or corner, or sacrificing another kids work and telling parents they are unreasonable.

Surely there's a third choice? Dealing witg the problems head on?

DT1 is in reception and sits next to a challenging child on the carpet.
I had a word today as he’s covered in bruises on one side - pinches, elbowing, kicking and punching.
I’m not asking for him to be moved, just that the teacher is aware and can supervise more.

I’ve also talked to DT1 about helping this boy to learn how to do the right thing in school. He’s coming over (with his dad) for tea next week.

Hopefully it will be sorted fairly soon.

admit what's not working? School? Do you think these children shouldn't have a right to an education?

Dont be ridiculous. Nobody is saying that but they dont have the right to ruin another childs education in the process.

Many quiet studious kids will not complain as then they are branded 'snitches' or worse and pay for it in the playground. My son didnt tell me about the mentoring for a week as he thought that if a teacher told you to do something he had to do it but he was fed up with having this boy calling him names, delibetately spoiling games, and disrupting his work and pushing him around. The boy did not have sen he was just a cocky little sod who proudly admitted he took pleasure in hurting other kids and spoiling lessons.

I dont know what strategies teachers have to deal with this but its not my kids job to be the brunt of another kids total disregard for education or other people.

My eldest is very mature and passive. In a past school we had a boy who was an absolute nightmare. He was very aggressive, controlling and manipulative. I one saw him throw a girl down the stairs. He was awful. His mother petitioned the school to, in her words, "build the class around him" with a teacher and children he liked to manage his behaviour. This included my son and got back to me. I went ballistic because the set up was not in my DS's best interests. I had him moved off the list. Boys mum went mad.

Again, eldest this year was sat next to a very difficult child who was making his school life a misery and when my DS stood up for himself he was apportioned 50% of the blame for the incident when he has never been in trouble before. I had him moved.

Write to the teacher and ask for your DC got be moved. The teachers and head of school seem to have their hands tied over dealing with bullies or badly behaved pupils these days. You need to stick up for your DC because the school won't.

It has happens in our class too. I have had to go in and speak with the teacher after this kept on happening with my son. I was told it was because my son was a good influence. However, it prevented my son from being able to concentrate. Final straw was when the child then whacked my son in the face with a ruler. A few days after this incident the child got an achievers award.

Happened a lot in primary school to my DCs. They saw it as a punishment for being well behaved. No child should have to sit through lessons being pinched or being unable to concentrate when they just want to get in with their work.

This has happened through my DD's schooling (she's in Y9 now and it still happens)

I would make a note of when children were moved and then pop in to see teacher and say 'x was moved next to my DD last term, she's had a term sitting next to them, she's done her time now I'd like the seating plan changed again please' and they would always agree and often she'd then get a chance to sit next to one of her friends for a term. Teachers do want to be fair.

Now she's in secondary school she fights her own battles, it's not so bad either because they sit next to someone different in each subject so don't have to endure a whole day of it.

DS was in a very challenging Y4 class where the bullying kids had taken over and subverted every reward system for behaviour and several children had been taken out.

They got a new supply teacher. She was pretty sharp and nothing got past her.

She arranged them into two horseshoes of tables facing her so she could see all their faces and see them working. She put the disruptive ones on the inner horse shoe right in front of her, and the workers at the back.

She had them under her thumb in under 2 days, where previous teachers had taken weeks to fail.

She also followed up with things like make sure every child who had learned how to play football got a chance to play in a game during the friendly matches with other schools. For the league where they had to win she put in a winning team, but for the friendlies she had a whole load of substitutes, and they all got oranges at half time. They still won, and it is the only time DS ever played (and ate an orange!) and I have never seen him enjoy himself so much. He was singing 2 - nil to himself in bed.

Sadly, this was one of the main reasons we went private.

If there are challenging children in any class, the well behaved dc will invariably end up sitting next to them.

I think it would be very interesting to find out what has changed over the years tbh

When I was at primary all those years back we didn't have tas and there were far more kids in a class. By the end of it numbers had crept up to like 36/37.

Throughout secondary school and college pretty much my entire friendship group was made up of people with all those issues that one now might think would explain multiple problems/occurrences

But it was those with nothing wrong with them that were the idiots mucking about and causing the problems. Of course the deputy head cared nore about skirt lengths and ear studs than doing anything about it.

My friends were lucky that for whatever reasons they were able to hold it together, because this pretending problems don't exist by sticking them next to kids who won't say anything, could have been very detrimental

Flaky speak to the teacher. I don;t think it is harmful for short periods of time to mix kids up for specific projects etc, buut to be sat next to someone who is upsetting you in class is harmful and will be unlikely to calm a naughty child, IMHO, more likely just to cause the the other child to switch off more!

@CrazyExIngenue that's terrible, how long ago did that happen to you. I hope things are changing!

slimmerShady "My first question is why you think he's suffering?" Because the OP*'s first sentence is "So he is then upset by them being mean to him and doesn't want to go to school?"

@Tringley excellent post at 'Thu 18-Jan-18 11:02:21'

@GingerIvy "Perhaps some of these "challenging" children have SEN. Perhaps some of these "challenging" children are not getting the support they need. Perhaps they are being bullied themselves. Perhaps they're going through something traumatic." I an well believ that is true. How is sitting next to a well-behaved child going to do anything to help all those situation? It's not. So why not deal with those issues.

"...just toss them all together in a corner and have done with it so they don't bother the "angelic" children. " No one said that. If they were seated with other children with behavioral issues maybe a TA could better supervise them.

"You lost my sympathy the moment I read the title. Angelic, indeed." The word was not angelic but rather 'angelic', which suggest that is the teacher's thinking and not the parents.

@Jux your daughter being picked up and carried around the class! Fuck that. I am so sorry. Is his still happening to your daughter or is this in the past?

caper, both my DC go to a private school. The bullying is still there. In fact, I think my school refuses to do anything about the bullies because they will lose out on the school fees and fees of any siblings that their parents threaten to pull out.

I had to sit next to a naughty lad in Geography. He tormented me so I stabbed him in the back of his hand with a pencil (I’m not usually violent and was a good student) so he stabbed me in the back with a compass.

This kind of class management just drags everyone down.

They’re better off in rows of desks.

My kids school the tables seemed.to.be swutched around at least every 4 weeks. And they have different groups for literacy and maths

DearShirt "As pp's have mentioned, bullying is a separate issue"

It may be partly a separate issue but being forced to sit next to a child who has bullied you and who you know may bully you in the future again, is wrong. There is no two ways about it.

neveradullmoment99 "Maybe your child isn't as angelic as you think. How do you know it isn't him?"

Because this is the child who is complaining and now the OP will let the teacher know. If the other child is unhappy maybe his mum or dad will also tell the teacher and the teacher will have two reasons to move the children!

@Twofishfingers "where do you want the difficult kids to go? in a cage? outside the classroom? they have to sit somewhere."

Well, I can't speak for the OP but I'd say no to the cage.

Maybe yes to outside the class room if it is not meeting their needs, maybe time in a small group elsewhere for specific needs would be good. y dd is not disruptive but she has dyslexia and would have benefited from a small group outside class. It was not my dd's primary schools policy to do this, and they failed her miserably. She is now at secondary school where she does have separate school group work, and she is doing better and is happier at school.

Yes, they need to sit somewhere, maybe address their needs would be a way to start, and not making the disruptive child the responsibility of the non-disruptive one.

Talk to the teacher. However teachers are in a tricky position as if you group all the ‘challenging’ children together then it can be impossible to teach anything which would negatively impact on your son too.

So, by all means go in but try to be empathetic and tone down the furious. They aren’t doing it to harm your son. They are trying to get the best out of everyone. If this is causing a problem your son, then it’s totally reasonable to bring this to the teacher’s attention.

@Arseface "he’s covered in bruises on one side - pinches, elbowing, kicking and punching...He’s coming over (with his dad) for tea next week.

Hopefully it will be sorted fairly soon."

I really hope that things will get sorted.

Are the two children friends? Was it your child's idea to invite this child over?

If not, please be careful. If the behavior does not change, please get your child's teacher to address it, bruises suggest bullying and having your bully invited to your house seems very wrong. it's slightly different if 'tea' is happening outside your home but inside your home should be your child's sanctuary from that type of thing.

I think teachers need to be approaching their union and getting changes to the law so that additional help can be given to disruptive children that does not allow them to disrupt classes. Plus disruptive children should be removed from class/removed from exam/removed from schools. Once removed some other work should be done with them to help them.

@BanyanTree "My eldest is very mature and passive. In a past school we had a boy who was an absolute nightmare. He was very aggressive, controlling and manipulative. I one saw him throw a girl down the stairs." How old was he? why isn't he in detained somewhere?

"His mother petitioned the school to, in her words, "build the class around him" with a teacher and children he liked to manage his behaviour." You see this is part of the trouble, teacher have lost their power to tell parents a PC version of 'Fuck off' (or did the teacher manage that?)

Unfortunately, despite the lip service paid, nobody gives too much of a shit about high achievers because their scores are never going to be embarrassing on a league table. It’s sensible statistical management to sacrifice the wellbeing and achievement of the highest achievers to raise the scores of the failing children into the realms of acceptable normality. Far better 30 C grades than 15 C, 10 E and D and 5 A.

I don’t blame the teachers for this, this whole thing could be fixed with more money in the system and a harder hand with things like excluding for unacceptable behaviour.

I have a disruptive child with SEN, his large secondary school luckily has th resources to supervise him 1-1 for 27 hours a week. If he wasn’t diagnosed he would not be receiving that supervision or any medication and would probably be throwing furniture. But the thing is, I don’t make his brother look after him and I don’t expect any kid to - yet without that teaching assistant, the teacher would have to resort to placing him with girls who can be relied upon to shut the fuck up and go away and not bother the teacher when he inevitably misbehaves. The teacher would have no authority to do anything else until he injured someone.

@MiaowTheCat I am sorry you had those horrible experiences. When I was talking about 'outisde' the class room I did not mean shoved behind a filing cabinet. I mean in a room with a teacher or TA and other pupils doing specific work that would be helpful. That is what I wanted for my non-disruptive but very much struggling dd.

The system at the moment seems to be not working for disruptive kids. Really this needs a much bigger picture discussion but sadly education seems so strapped for cash there is no slack in system. It sounds to me like your school either did not know what was going on or simply was not able to cope with it.

As an ex “good girl” who experienced this throughout all of my school career, YADNBU.

Lazy teachers who couldn’t be bothered to discipline the naughty boys would sit me with them in the hope I’d be a “good influence”. Needless to say, it never worked and just ended up with my education being disrupted, unable to learn as the naughty kids refused to participate in any group work, and it meant I hated lessons that I otherwise could have enjoyed and learnt a lot from. Not to mention the effect it had on me when the gobby kids inevitably turned nastiness onto the quiet, hardworking girl.

I fucking hated it. It’s lazy teaching. It’s not the other children’s responsibility to police behaviour – it is the teacher’s.

If any teachers are reading this – please, please do not do this.

This happened to my DD in Y5 and 6 at the local primary. The child in question was on the upper end of the challenging scale and a number of parents removed their DC from the school because of him. I personally didn't have a problem with the seating arrangement and it seemed to have a positive effect on the child, who had a grim home life. It seems to have had no ill effects on DD socially or educationally and I wonder whether that's because I shrugged it off as just being the way things work. I know she'd have preferred not to sit next to this child, but she didn't ask me to intervene and I wouldn't have been keen to anyhow.

It's an appalling thing to do.

I was the bright kid in school, and teachers forced me to sit next to the naughty, underachieving kids. I had parents who were controlling, and I wasn't allowed to go out with other children and play or to have them over very often. It seriously increased the extent to which I was socially isolated while coping with that control. I ended up watching with hurt while my whole friendship group had fun across the room. The girl I had sat next to previously, who had been my best friend throughout the whole of primary school, made a new best friend on another tablebefore my very eyes. They were also socialising together outside of school, and I was basically left out. It left a deep impression on me that I was, in some way, being punished for being good. Of course, I met new friends in high school, and am still friends with some of them today, but I never really lost the sense that being clever somehow made me unworthy of other people's company.

Don't let this happen to your child! It's an awful thing to do!

It's an appalling thing to do.

I was the bright kid in school, and teachers forced me to sit next to the naughty, underachieving kids. I had parents who were controlling, and I wasn't allowed to go out with other children and play or to have them over very often. It seriously increased the extent to which I was socially isolated while coping with that control. I ended up watching with hurt while my whole friendship group had fun across the room. The girl I had sat next to previously, who had been my best friend throughout the whole of primary school, made a new best friend on another tablebefore my very eyes. They were also socialising together outside of school, and I was basically left out. It left a deep impression on me that I was, in some way, being punished for being good. Of course, I met new friends in high school, and am still friends with some of them today, but I never really lost the sense that being clever somehow made me unworthy of other people's company.

Don't let this happen to your child! It's an awful thing to do!