To be furious teachers keep sitting 'naughty' kids next to my 'angelic' DC

[Flaky]

So he is then upset by them being mean to him and doesn't want to go to school?

This is at least the 3rd occasion a kid like this has been moved next to him.

Last year the teacher admitted that she had done it so DS's good influence rubs off but why should he suffer for it?

He's the youngest in the class as well (Yr2)and some of these DC are almost a whole year older.

Isn't this just very lazy teaching?

Tell the teacher to stop doing it as your child is coming home feeling frustrated that he can't get his work done effectively.

Hi, first time posting but couldn't let it go by without saying something and giving my experience as an adult that went through the same as your child is.

Was in a similar situation as your DC between the ages of 5 and 8 at school. Would get sat beside the naughtiest kids in class because, apparently, I was a "calming influence", despite my parents complaining repeatedly. Some would behave after a few days, and some wouldn't.

Ended up being kicked and punched quite badly by one of them on the playground. And still forced to sit beside him because he was "troubled" and needed help. Second time he did it I fought back, very our of character of me, in an act of self defence. Ended up hitting him with a stone and that was the last I was made to sit beside the naughty kids. Also, it took me a long time to be able to stand up for myself to bullies or people with bad behaviour as a teenager and young adult, and I believe those experiences played quite a large part in this. Before being attacked by that kid I was quite asertive in a non-aggressive way. After that I wasn't for a long while. All is good now and have my old assertive self back, but it took time and work.

What I'm trying to say is that if your child is suffering emotionally, being withdrawn, having slef-esteem problems or being bullied or threatened in any way, you are not being unreasonable at all. Your child's wellbeing comes first. It's a shame the other kids have problems, but that doesn't mean it's ok to potentially create problems for your child. If it was my DC I would not let them be sat with disruptive problematic kids, no matter what.

Someonessnackbitch fortunately this is not the OP’s concern. As a parent you simply have to put your own child first, regardless.

This has happened to both my children throughout their time in primary school. It’s not fair on a well behaved child who would like to focus on their studies to have to suffer the bad behaviour of a less well behaved child. It’s probably even easier to sit the less well behaved children all together at the front of the class and keep a close eye on them rather than spreading them out all over the classroom.

I'm surprised that so many teachers of primary have such inflxible seating arrangements.

Every child in my class has a 'home' place where they keep their stuff in a drawer, and where they sit each morning for registration. They might also start the week there for Maths, and they might sit there for 1 other lesson per day - perhaps Art or something like that. They change 'home' places every half term. I work it out based approximately on 'like pairs within a mixed ability table' model, so each pair tends to be compatible and of fairly like ability / behaviour, but they may be seated with other pairs who might be rather different.

They have separate English places, roughly based on ability / need for support, and have reading group places, which are different again.

In Maths, they are seated differently each day based on the marking of the previous day's work, so everyone gets the support or extension that they need.

Yes, given that I seat them for learning not behaviour, there may be a lesson in which children are seated next to someone not ideal in terms of behaviour - either next to their best girly giggling buddy, or a child with more challenging behaviour. There is a single desk at the back of the classroom where i can move a single child if needed, to divide partnerships which are not working in that way for a specific lesson.

However, this experience of having a single neighbour, lesson after lesson and day after day, just isn't my normality.

I'm a teacher, and I have to say I have sometimes done this with seating, but I change seating plans every couple of weeks to make sure it doesn't keep happening to the same kid. The disruptive ones have to sit somewhere! If you put them all together the noise level rapidly escalates and they disrupt everyone.

You are no BU to be upset and to want to talk to the teacher. But you are BU to be furious. Try speaking to the teacher calmly and it can probably be sorted out fairly easily.

Very sorry for your child OP but there are so many 'naughty' children at schools nowadays that there is often not enough space in classrooms to separate the nice/naughty children. With huge class sizes and very little that can be done with the 'naughty' ones, unfortunately this is just going to get worse in the future ☹️

"If you put them all together the noise level rapidly escalates and they disrupt everyone."

I think that is always the tricvky calculation.

Within any class, you have the genuinely disruptive, the easily led, the generally OK and the actively well-behaved. If you can keep the genuinely disruptive away from the easily led, the numbers of incidents that you have to deal with is dramatically reduced. The two main 'static' models for this would be 'put the disruptive children together and resign yourself to the fact that controlling that group may take most of the effort you put into that lesson (thus reducing teaching / supporting of learning time for the rest of the class, but allowing those who can get on with the work independently to do so fairly comfortably)' and 'spread the disruptive children out amongst the generally OK / actively well behaved', which will almost certainly allow more time teaching and less time acting as a 'policeman with a bunch of captives', but is obviously hard on those immediately next to a disruptive child in that lesson.

I go, as I said, for a constantly-rotating / changing seating pattern, which does mean that if someone has an uncongenial partner it is only for the length of a lesson, but does, IME, on average maximise the amount of focus on teaching / learning / helping students who are stuck.

@theNewKaren I understand what you’re saying but if so much time is spent on behaviour management then OP’s child would not be getting the teaching they deserve.
I’m currently working in a very difficult class. Each supply teacher says ‘this is the worst class I’ve had’ other members of staff who have worked at this school have said they’ve never experienced a class like this.
We have tried every different searing arrangement and when we put all of the ‘badly behaved kids on one table’ it was an absolute nightmare. The higher achievers had regressed, we looked through their books to see this. They just weren’t getting the attention they needed. All of our time was spent by behaviour management and constant disruptions.

The naughty one's have got to sit somewhere! As long as the teacher rotates, then it is fair on everyone. Be pleased that it is your dc that is the well behaved 'angelic' child.

This has happened at our school too and it's tricky. A mum (qualified teacher) whose child was constantly chosen to sit next to difficult customers, went in and told the class teacher in no uncertain terms that her child's job at school was to learn and the teacher's job was to manage the classroom. You can understand why they do it but I certainly wouldn't be happy if my child was upset by it.

I agree can’t. All options have advantages and disadvantages, and it can depend on the mix of children in the class.

A seating strategy that works in one class, won’t necessarily work in another.

It’s probably even easier to sit the less well behaved children all together at the front of the class and keep a close eye on them rather than spreading them out all over the classroom.
It depends entirely on the group and the teacher. That's what I'm trying to say on this thread. Seating is complex abd part of a big picture. One seating strategy doesn't work at all times for all groups.

E.g. With a y11 class sitting the lazy coasting ones on one side and ignoring them until they started working was a reasomable strategy. I had a good relationship with the class and firm behaviour management. They saw others getting help and praise, realised wjat they were missing and attitude to learning improved.
That wouldn't be ok with a new y7 class.

E.g.2. I inherited a class from hell a few years back. It was a low set but had 28 in and it went up to 30 over the year. I was new to the school and their original teacher was still working in school but was pulled from the class because they were a nightmare. I'd say 6-10 were amazing and the rest were a mix of fringe students and known players. That group requrired a different approach to seating because tje 'good/bad' balance was heavily weighted to tjr disruptive end. The big players had to be spread around the room because a clump together would have been a bloody disaster and then relentless strong behaviour management.

You are no BU to be upset and to want to talk to the teacher. But you are BU to be furious. Try speaking to the teacher calmly and it can probably be sorted out fairly easily.
This ^^
Totally reasonable to have a chat with the teacher.
Totally reasonable to report bullying etc and expect it to be dealt with.
Not reasonable to be absolutely fuming and think your child should be never sat near a disruptive child.

If your child is particularly angelic then that can look like they are always having to sit with someone difficult. Sometimes that is the case, but other times it can be because the "angelic" child has a very low tolerance of "normal" behaviour and would complain about nearly anyone in the class. As would their parent. It's hard to know sometimes.

I agree with this and I’ve seen it happen. Things aren't always as black and white as ‘naughty’ and angelic. I have seen so called well behaved children do very sneaky, planned underhand things to others which they know very well will go unnoticed by the teacher. Whereas with the ‘naughty’ child what you see is what you get and they immediately behaviours are more obvious and impulsive.

No, you are absolutely NOT being unreasonable... I have posted before along these same lines on a topic a couple of years ago. My happy-go-lucky, confident 4.5 year old daughter was "picked" by her reception class teacher, to "look after" a miserable, sad, frightened, (possibly disturbed) child from day TWO at her school, and I watched her become sad, miserable and not wanting to go to school any longer. On further investigations, it transpired that she NEVER got to go out and play with other children, but had to sit in the class-room with the weeping child and comfort her...... week after week .... and it utterly RUINED her first few months of real school. This was year ago, but I still feel the rage. Your child is NOT at school to babysit!!!!! GO TO THE SCHOOL AND GET IT SORTED ... PLEASE, before your childs' first memories of school are such miserable ones. My daughter, sadly, remembers beginning to DREAD going to school, when she had been so very much looked forward to it, after her older sister had begun, a few years earlier. I have to admit, that when the truth came out I went ballistic, but it finally stopped.

Same sima.
I taught a well behaved, smart boy ages ago who appeared to be just your average, readonably well behaved child. There were some PITA around school in the group too who some days were brilliant and others horrendous.
Over time and a bit of playing with seating what became clear was that that the 'good lad' was subtly winding up less intelligent students, provoking a reaction and then sitting back and smirking when they got in trouble because thry had a reputation so would get in bother quickly. He couldn't be bothered to work and decided it was much more fun doing just enough work to fly under the radar whilst stirring the pot.

It got to thr point where 'naughty' students were spread around the room on a table containing a mix of fabulous abd average pupils. I sat him on a table of immaculate pupils where he could make zero eye contact with 'disruptive' pupils.
Classroom management issue solved. The issue wasn't thr impulsive disruptive students. It was someone targeting and winding them up because they were too daft to notice. I got annoyed and had his parents in for a meeting.

Most amazingly behaved students are simply amazing, but some aren't as angelic as their parents like to think.

I read some very thorough research on streaming v mixing up abilities in secondary schools (I realise the thread is about primary) which concluded that mixing up doesn't make any difference to bright students (they tend to do well, streamed or not) but it is very beneficial for those who struggle to be in a class with more able children.
Maybe the teacher is thinking along these lines.

This is still happening to my DD in Y9! It’s really frustrating and I have started taking it up with specific teachers - which is helping. But i’ve had to really spell out the difficulties it has caused her - as they really didn’t realise.

I hate this policy. I was the "good influence"/hard worker/academic overachiever who had the disruptive kid sat next to me so I could rub off on them. Except I also had, at that point undiagnosed, ASD. It made my life hell - as far as I was concerned I was at school to learn, do my work and listen to the teacher, and the repeated disruptions to this caused me no end of anxiety and upset. When they would want to copy my work sent me into a panic.

”Be pleased that it is your dc that is the well behaved 'angelic' child.”

Should she also be ‘pleased’ that this arrangement is making her child so unhappy that they don’t want to go to school, @Springprim?

Some of the firsthand accounts of the damage done to the quiet, well behaved child by this arrangement are appalling - and equally appalling is the willingness of some on here to accept that damage to children as the price of helping other children.

If the arrangement works for both children, and neither suffer (in the short or long term), then I am all for it. But teachers who use it have to be aware of the risks to the child being ‘used’ this way, and must step in if they are suffering, emotionally, mentally, physically or educationally.

My heart goes out to teachers, truly it does - I can only imagine the stress of classroom management and seating plans - but are we happy to accept that we will hear more stories like the heartbreaking ones on here? Is it ever OK for class seating plans to damage a child? Some on here would seem to believe that it is.

”Be pleased that it is your dc that is the well behaved 'angelic' child.”

Should she also be ‘pleased’ that this arrangement is making her child so unhappy that they don’t want to go to school, @Springprim?

Some of the firsthand accounts of the damage done to the quiet, well behaved child by this arrangement are appalling - and equally appalling is the willingness of some on here to accept that damage to children as the price of helping other children.

If the arrangement works for both children, and neither suffer (in the short or long term), then I am all for it. But teachers who use it have to be aware of the risks to the child being ‘used’ this way, and must step in if they are suffering, emotionally, mentally, physically or educationally.

My heart goes out to teachers, truly it does - I can only imagine the stress of classroom management and seating plans - but are we happy to accept that we will hear more stories like the heartbreaking ones on here? Is it ever OK for class seating plans to damage a child? Some on here would seem to believe that it is.

Woops! Apologies for the accidental double post.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius
I don't think anyone has said it's fine to damage a child.
I have seen a few people (me included) say that people shouldn't automatically assume that being sat near a distruptive student leads to bullying or having their learning trashed.

E.g. i teach a student this year who I really like but they are so daft. Nothing malicious about them. They just suffer word vomit and insist on asking stupid questions rather than thinking for 5 seconds about what would be logical. Sometimes they know it's a daft question and will ask it anyway to get a giggle. Sitting them next to a hard working student who takes no crap works well because the students do take the piss in a funny way. After a couple of weeks they go to ask a question and hive mind kicks in and you can see them weighing up 'is this question going to get me torn apart?' The class have told me I'm scary when I tell people off and they describe me as strict (which is fair) but the class culture has done wonders for silly daft boy because whereas he was used to being the clown, the class and I shut him down. It doesn't matter where I sit daft student now because he works hard and is really wrll behaved.
That decision wouldn't work for a different group.

It's all so student, class, teacher, package of classroom management dependant.

Maisypops You have just described what I have seen happen so often. Unfortunately not enough adults notice.

My dc were never "angels" but, far worse, to me, was when they were assigned large, important grade projects and my dc were the most dependable. Other children were lazy "weak links" while my dc worked hard to complete them.

@MaisyPops - no-one has said directly that it is OK to damage a child, but there are a few on this thread who are far too keen to dismiss the damage that has been done to some children, or to minimise it, which makes me feel that they aren’t really too bothered by the prospect.

Your posts have been entirely reasonable and sensible, and I am in no way attributing these views to you.