To be furious teachers keep sitting 'naughty' kids next to my 'angelic' DC

[Flaky]

So he is then upset by them being mean to him and doesn't want to go to school?

This is at least the 3rd occasion a kid like this has been moved next to him.

Last year the teacher admitted that she had done it so DS's good influence rubs off but why should he suffer for it?

He's the youngest in the class as well (Yr2)and some of these DC are almost a whole year older.

Isn't this just very lazy teaching?

I was frequently called "Straight faced" at school for wanting to learn. I was really upset about it but the teachers said I was too sensitive and needed to toughen up .

It took 17 years for me to disassociate myself from that nickname.

Ploppymoodypants
I too was a quiet child who was sat near naughty children to be a good influence as well.
In some lessons it was fine e.g. One naughty child on a table with 3 others and a teacher with good behaviour management.
In some lessons it was awful and made me hate those lessons.

That experience plus being a teacher now leaves me.with the view that having a more disruptive child near a not disruptuve child isn't always terrible.

It is bad if there is bullying, if they choose a quiet wallflower child who is expected to put up with crap, if the good child never gets to sit with a non disruptive child, if the teacher expects the child to TA etc.

But sat near each other as one part of a well managed classroom is reasonable.

Seating is one part of a big picture.

Masiepops can I ask a genuine questions to you as a teacher? Don’t at all having a go, I really appreciate all the hard work teachers do, and freely admit I could do the job.

In your earlier post you describe putting a disputing pupil next to a well behaved one of similar ability who won’t take any rubbish. Which obviously seems like a good idea and I can completely see your logic. But what if the well behaved middling pupil got to sit with another well behaved but more able student. Couldn’t they benefit from being with that pupil? Rather than babysitting the naughty one. I appreciate in an ideal world we need more resources and I don’t know what the answer is. I just feel like the disruptive pupils get more attention and help. And I know they need it to keep up. But it means gone well behaved kids don’t get to reach their full potential and they and the teachers are busy helping the disruptive children come up to expected standards or their potential. But in the meantime are not being stretched themselves.

Sorry for typos - must proof read

Not read the full thread, but to me @Willow2017 hit the nail on the head on page 2 when she said it's not her kids job to monitor bad kids behaviour and get them to behave, that's the teachers job, and it's not up to her kid to develop strategies to cope with bullying, it should be for the school to stop bullying.

That precisely would be my attitude.

OP - YANBU. I'd be royally pissed off and would be pressing the school to move the seating around and give me kid a break in your shoes!

YANBU. My DD seems to end up with the little shit of the class next to her. I'm fed up of it, she seems to have to work with him often too. He has been fucking horrible to her on and off for the last year, tripped her up, thrown her stuff in the mud, scribbled on her work that she has had to re do, knocks her pencil on purpose, ripped her picture, smashed her rocket. I've been in about him a couple of times. Thankfully he has just been moved to another place in the table or I was going in about it. It's not my DDs responsibility to have to have a calming influence on this child, he is a horror and lots of parents have had to complain about his behaviour. I do think children like this should be sat away from others. Why should my child's learning suffer.

I got this at primary and high school and i think it actually made me more shy as they were intimidating. It also stills happens to me now in my workplace, sit the trouble makers next to me becausd others refuse to sit with them, pisses me right off

It happened to my child. She was always seated next to the disruptive pupils. I once watched one thump her in the arm and instead of reacting like most other kids would she muttered "Ow" with tears in her eyes and just rubbed her arm. The kid stopped the punching because he didn't get the reaction he wanted (even though I wanted to give him a bloody good bollocking!). I can understand why the teachers use this method but it bugs me that it's at the expense of my child. I have no advice for you except if it is really bothering your child, speak to the teacher about changing the seating arrangements.

Ploppymoodypants
I move my classes round every few weeks so nobody gets 'stuck' with someone. So a middle child may get another middle, then a higher, then lower etc. The seating arrangements chanhe by topic and are tweaked week to week if the need arises (e.g a form tutor emails saying they are investigating bullying between x and y so i'll ensure they are well apart)

Usually after a few weeks being sat well, a previously disruptive student tends to realise I seat for learning and if they disrupt learninh or are unkind then they are sanctioned. At that point even previously disruptive children actually end up working really well. It's a better starting point than 'you lot are naughty' because at secondary naughty students can become like a pack and it's better to try to squash it.

I've been lambasted on other threads for having a firm approach to discipline but I do find that firm, fair and friendly goes a long way, even with disruptive children. Seating is a small part in a complex picture.

Maisypops thank you for explaining that to me. I do understand what you are trying to achieve and it sounds like you are using the method to it’s full advantage, and all your pupils are getting an opportunity to help others and get stretched themselves. Thank you

I think most teachers rotate the disruptive children so that their behaviour doesn't just impact on one child or a small group.

It's all very well for some here to say teachers are lazy but I'd like to hear from them what they expect to be done with these children.

Classrooms have limited space TAs have become a luxury in some schools and with 30 in the class someone has to sit by the disruptive child.

Rotating them is the best that many teachers can do. My DSs both took their turns sitting with the disruptive ones and as long as no bullying was involved it was something they had to suck up. It's life.

But again I ask, what are we supposed to do with them?

And I sympathise with that i really do.

But this sucking up thing is a) usually aimed at the girls

And b) it's all very well saying it's fine as longer there's no bullying but it is always the ones who won't say anythung who seem to be hand picked to take the hit.

Fact is none if us know about it til months or even years later when they snap by which time the damage is done.

I don't know what other methods people are taught when training but surely if by year 6 it's the same kids over and over and they haven't responded, then it's not what's going to work for them is it.

Surely after the 2nd or 3rd year if no improvement you'd start to look at other ideas?

And life may be learning to work with people you don't get on with. But its not learning to work while being kicked under the table, pushed off your side if the desk, stabbed with compasses, have work destroyed, come home with bruises etc like all the people have experienced or kids have experienced on the thread

giles
You (like others) are assuming it is always a problem to have a mkre disruptive child near any child who isn't disruptuve.

Do I think some staff make rubbish seating decisions? Yes.
Do i think some staff expect good kids to deal with naughty kids? Yes.
Do i think that they are making poor decisions in their classroom? Yes.

However, does the fact there are some poor decisions that mean I can assume that any time a well behaved and more disruptuve child are sat together there is a problem and bullying and underlying mental health issies brewing? Of course not.
And life may be learning to work with people you don't get on with. But its not learning to work while being kicked under the table, pushed off your side if the desk, stabbed with compasses, have work destroyed, come home with bruises etc like all the people have experienced or kids have experienced on the thread

And life may be learning to work with people you don't get on with. But its not learning to work while being kicked under the table, pushed off your side if the desk, stabbed with compasses, have work destroyed, come home with bruises etc like all the people have experienced or kids have experienced on the thread

And life may be learning to work with people you don't get on with. But its not learning to work while being kicked under the table, pushed off your side if the desk, stabbed with compasses, have work destroyed, come home with bruises etc like all the people have experienced or kids have experienced on the thread
Those things are bullying and many have repeatedly said that should be dealt with.

A child who can be disruptive isn't automatically a bully. Sitting next to a child who can be disruptive doesn't mean being kicked and it doesn't mean 'ooh so and so will sort it for me'. It annoys me that tje default assumption is that teachers don't understamd how to do seating plans bevause some people have jad a poor experience.

Seating is part of a wider classroom culture and a bigger picture, which includes classroom management (which people seem to he experts on who have never taught).

Put it this way, how many thread on MN do we see people complaining that their DC has had their play taken off them for not working hard/being silly/talking in class etc and three quarters of posters pile on saying how awful the school is, those children shouldn't have their breaks removed, it's draconian, it's bullying the children, it's so out of proportion, 'they were just...'

But DC is in a class where there is a noisy and disruptive student and suddenly it's also right to remove the child from class, expect a TA to educate tjay child, take away all breaks and lunch.

Some people on MN seem to want discipline... as long as it's not to their child. They would be quite happy having one child singled out on a desk alone every lesson, but then are raging if their child talks in assembly and gets moved.

Absolute quote fail there. Sorry.

Surely after the 2nd or 3rd year if no improvement you'd start to look at other ideas?

Like what? They have a right to an education and we can't send them home. There is nowhere for them to go now TAs are disappearing.

In the days when every class had a TA the TA would sit at the table with the group containing the disruptive child. Or sometimes the TA would sit outside the classroom with the disruptive child to encourage him/her to work with no distraction.That worked. But schools can't afford that any more.

I spent the last few years of my career in a school for children with challenging behaviour. Small classes, low pupil - teacher ration and lots of TAs. That worked really well.

But some parents didn't want the "stigma" of that school so insisted they remain in mainstream - as was their right.

The school was too expensive to maintain so it was demolished and the land sold for housing. Now nearly all children who would have been catered for there are in mainstream. But without the support staff.

Teachers aren't generally lazy. They are struggling to maintain as good a level of education as they can in almost impossible circumstances. They can only do their best and sometimes disruptive children have to sit with quieter children. Not a thing the teacher can do about that, they wish they could.

My DCs school seem very fixed on this method.
I nearly took one of my DD (young for her age, shy and keen to learn) for a hearing test because she kept telling me she couldn’t hear the teacher. Then I realised it was the constant distraction from the other kids she was sat with.
I have lost some trust with the school because when I have complained over the years when its a particularly stressful pairing, they said they did move the kids regularly at half term but that they would only move them every half term ‘unless there was a real problem’.

It’s an inexperienced teacher probably. Complain.

Happens all the time to Ds2. I ask for said child to be moved as soon as I find out.

fried
How can you possibly judge the teacher's level of experience?
I've mentored NQTs who have better behaviour management and seating strategies than teachers of 20 years.

A poor seating strategy is a poor seating strategy regardless of career stage (though how you handle the need to develop would differ). Speculating about someone's level of experience is uncalled for.

Someone who thinks a consistantly poorly behaved student’s behaviour will improve when sat next to someone well behaved IS inexperienced. It doesn’t matter how many actual years of ‘experience’ they have under their belt.

Believe me if my child needs telling off you have my full backing of that. And I certainly don't want you to send these kids home or teach in a cage or whatever other crap people who seem to think we want to cherry pick desk mates. Truth is i dont care who dd sits next to for the most part.

I am most definately not the kind of parent who goes in every friendship change demanding dd be moved.

If the pairings work and everyone is happy then we don't even know about them and there's no discussion is there.

We are talking on this thread because it hasn't worked for many people. And I'm sure that you personally would like to deal with any bullying or whatever that goes on

I'm just trying to highlight the fact that when the people are picked they are picked precisely because they will keep quiet. If you were so convinced there wouldn't be a problem and you would deal witg it if one arose then why not the smart well behaved but assertive kid? Why not the one who takes no crap and would be straight up to the desk to tell the teacher?

I'm only finding out now slowly what has happened in the last couple of years. My dd is that one who won't say anything. The one time she did she was the one moaned at.

Of course everyone deserves to be there. But it should not just he a trade off.

Everyone's right to an education applies to the quiet kids too.

Seating strategy can improve long term disruptive student behaviour as one part of a range of methods.
Anyone with experience would know that

People can't seem to understand that there is a differenve between:

1. Sitting a disruptive child near an angel and asusming by magic they will learn to behave without any other input

And

1. Sitting a disruptive child strategically in the room where seating strategy is one part of a range of methods used to promote positive behaviour and sanction poor behaviour.

Option 1 is a poor teaching decision.
Option 2 is entirely reasonable.

It's a shame some can't /won't see the difference becaude it's much better to take a black and white view and sacrifice a child's education rather than use a range of strategies ti ensure all children are learning.

Who's doing the sacrificing?

If there's no problems why would we even know about it? I have no idea half the time who dd sits with.

People are only complaining when there's a problem. That problem often carries on for quite some time before anything is even said.

Gileswithachainsaw
My comments were general about picking and choosing when discipline is applied, not at you.

I do move the disruotive child around. I have said that many times on this thread and outlined seating strategies.

some teachers may do the age old 'loud and quiet' thing but it certainly isn't the norm from my years in school.

My point is that seating is one part of a big picture.
As a child i used to get landed with fhe disruptuve ones. In one lesson i hated it. In another (where the teacher was strong and took no crap) i didn't mind. The disruptuve child worled because thr teacher managed the classroom.
The issue is with how the teacher manages the child, not the seating strategy alone.

Does that really matter though?

I mean parents wouldn't even he allowed to know about what you were doing woth said child anyway it's none of our business.

No one is going to go " oh it's ok they will be dealing with them woth X Y z. So you can stay where you are"