AIBU This is so heart breaking! **Thread contains article about Poppi Worthington - title edited by MNHQ**

[Meadowflowers]

How can this man be getting away with this. What a beautiful baby and her life is now over because of that monster!.
I've been in tears this morning reading it. In fact I couldn't finish reading it. What is the system coming to???

Its a horrible case op very upsetting

Obviously there was a horrific crime, by someone, and obviously the police fucked up very badly.

But there is always far more information in a case than published in the papers. We can’t have vigilante action based on people reading the DM. In MiniTheMinx’s (illogical and inconsistent ) account of what it is to be human, who are these ‘wolves ‘ that presumed criminals get thrown to? Acting outside the law, they are outside society, too.

There has been a travesty of justice. We can’t put that right by sanctioning more illegal violence.

Why didn't Maxine Carr deserve a new identity, Dixie? She didn't kill anyone or aid and abet killing. She was pilloried by the tabloids who seriously misled the public about her and put her into severe danger.

Aeroflot, why would he be in prison?

I can honestly say if I was on a jury and his vigilante attacker was in front of me I would find him not guilty. Not everything is black and white. I do not support capital punishment, I do believe in the rule of law and living in a civilised society. Because these systems protect us. But in this case they haven’t. They’ve failed, Poppi has been failed. There is no justice, no punishment, our safeguards have failed.

Your suggesting that all vigilantism is thickos going after the wrong person and mob justice.

Indeed. Whither the good, competent, diligent vigilantes?

Why do you think bashstreet he murdered a child ffs!

Because she was deemed incapable of parenting four children prior to having Poppi and her twin

Huh? It's in the record that six of Poppi's mother's seven children were living with her at the time of Poppi's death, and her care of them was found to be adequate. Her oldest child, born when she was a teen, was indeed removed. Poppi's mother was a care leaver who was indeed probably vulnerable to a manipulative abuser, but there has never been any serious suggestion that her care of her children contributed to what happened to Poppi.

It's also worth noticing that when police attention started focusing on Paul Worthington and her injuries were found postmortem, she ditched him immediately, unlike far too many women who find their partner has been abusing their children.

Why do you think bashstreet he murdered a child ffs!

No, he didn't.

Even if it had been proved in court that he raped Poppi and this action caused her death, he has never been accused or suspected of killing her deliberately. This does not qualify legally as murder. And he was not found guilty, or even charged, for her rape. Nor will he be, unless new evidence emerges. He isn't going to prison.

Like it or not, the courts did what they were supposed to do.

I agree that if I was on a jury and a vigilante came up to court, id probably find him not guilty.It's part of the jury system that sometimes juries mete out their own kind of justice if they feel justice hasn't been done. I'd shed no tears for the man if he was beaten to death. But he is a human, like it or not. Just like serial killers are human, and the Nazi's were human, and ISIS are human. Humans do terrible things. They are still human beings and therefore have Human Rights. The police, forensic investigators and it looks like the paramedics massively cocked. up. They were good people doing a stressful job who did something completely and utterly incompetent. That is why this man is walking free. If we want a proper justice system then we cannot convict people without evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guilty. There is not enough evidence in this case.

What would you find your imaginary vigilante not guilty of?

Aeroflot, you keep suggesting that you wouldn't care if he was attacked in prison. I'm just wondering why you think he's in prison.

Where do all the people who would let vigilantes go free draw the line? On what basis do you think street mobs should have the right to try people, find them guilty and impose punishment?

The courts can’t do anything without enough evidence for a trial.

The reason there isn’t enough evidence to charge him is solely down to the fuck ups by the police. It’s absolutely disgusting that those responsible are not being held to account.

If they had done their jobs properly and followed procedures then this ‘man’ would be standing trial for manslaughter and child sexual abuse.

The reason he is free is because THE POLICE messed up.

Someone was found not guilty by a jury when they have assaulted the driver who killed their child iirc. We do have perverse jury verdicts when the defendant is clearly guilty. It does happen. Of course what is likely in this case is a mob of thugs would beat the crap out of him which is different and of course would be worse in the long run.

Whilst our eyes are being directed at the abhorrence of the crime and the despicable nature of her father...

I want everyone to remember that a 2 year old died. Evidence was not kept, she had a 7 minute inquest of her death. She died in 2012. No one cared.

It's taken 5 years to get anywhere near public truth and a step towards justice. I'll never forget this case for that reason - it has taken years and it is mainly journalists who fought persistently for this case to be brought out into the open. You wouldn't think it would happen in this day and age.

This article is 3 years after she died, 2 years ago. Worth a mind boggling read knowing now what we do.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/poppi-worthington-court-overturns-babys-unexplained-death-verdict-10408679.html

That man has protection. The police who failed and the social workers who failed have all been protected. This case has been kept as quiet as possible.
I'm seriously fucking, fucking, fucking sick and tired of the corrupt, paedophilic, institutionally abusive establishment running this country.

It's taken 5 years to get anywhere near public truth and a step towards justice. I'll never forget this case for that reason - it has taken years and it is mainly journalists who fought persistently for this case to be brought out into the open.

Is that really to our benefit as a society, though?

A child died, almost certainly because of a vile thing done to her by her parent. That is horrible and gut-wrenching, but fairly everyday. It happens three times a month in the UK. The family court evidence was sealed, as outlined in that article, specifically because there were still hopes of pursuing a criminal prosecution. Those hopes are now extinguished. There is no suggestion that social services failed to protect Poppi, and the worst that can be attributed to the police and medical services is that they didn't, in the middle of the crisis resus of a child, act to secure evidence which may or may not have been useful in prosecution. Remember, it's still fairly unclear how Poppi died. The coroner has plumped for suffocation, the family court judge was unsure but thought most likely shock tied to the anal injury.

Poppi deserved a full inquest. But are we really any closer to "justice" here? We haven't found massive institutional failure, there will be no criminal case. Are we a better, safer society because a lot of people have been given the opportunity to rail about what a monster Paul Worthington is?

“I want everyone to remember that a 2 year old died. Evidence was not kept, she had a 7 minute inquest of her death. She died in 2012. No one cared.”

Well that’s rubbish. Of course people cared.

I think someone has mentioned upthread that this was a rural police force. There is a large, new state of the art police station in this town. It is a pretty tough working class town with many social issues, poverty etc.

Although any sudden baby death in these circumstances is pretty rare, procedures are in place which should have been followed. They were senior police officers not new recruits. There appeared to be no adequate leadership with one of the officers stating they had come late to the case and blaming the other. I know one of the officers concerned.

I have attended Crown Court cases (unfortunately) and you cannot convict if you have any doubt. Even if it proceeded to a trial, which it would appear it cannot, the defence would undoubtedly present a strong case for reasonable doubt. PW took great care at the inquest to avoid saying anything incriminating by refusing to answer questions.

We are seeing intervention in the case of John Worboys by the government in the form of a proposal for judicial review. But he was convicted on the evidence unlike PW. I honestly cannot see a way forward. I hope I am wrong.

Are we a better, safer society because a lot of people have been given the opportunity to rail about what a monster Paul Worthington is?

I don’t think anybody is saying that. I think people are just angry that such a vile ‘human being’ is left unpunished and free to harm again.

Queen, your blind faith in the justice system is quite scary.

I’m at work so can’t reply more but someone asked what I would find the vigilante “not guilty” of. Presumably you’re hoping I say murder (which I will) so you can say well aha it’s the same thing. It’s not murder in the same sense though is it. There isn’t black and white when it comes to murder. It’s a sliding scale. Should a woman who kills her abusive husband be treated the same way someone else who murders a stranger for no reason be treated? If a schizophrenic kills someone because they are unwell be treated the same as the next murderer? Should a murdered of a child rapist be punished the same way if the child rapist evades justice?

No, that's not really it. I was hoping you'd sit down and think for a moment. Suppose, for example, ensuring route to vigilant, he runs a red and kills a bystander. Do you give blanket indemnity here, for example? What if he'd fled the scene and killed a paedo?

Queen, your blind faith in the justice system is quite scary.

I don't have a blind faith in the justice system. I wish Paul Worthington could have been convicted, like anyone does. But on the basis of the evidence available, he could not have been - and it's entirely possible that had more evidence been preserved he still wouldn't have been.

Individual police officers fucked up, no question. That, too, unfortunately happens all the time - and procedures do exist which weren't followed, so we're seeing individual incompetence (and strain) rather than institutional failure.

This case has high selling-newspapers value, which is why journalists have pursued it aggressively, but I don't see that it's providing us significant learnings. People guilty of horrible things go free every day because of cock-ups in criminal investigations.