Table Manners

[ciele]

AIBU to think such things are important?
I was brought up to consider such stuff as no elbows on the table, not eating with your mouth open, putting knife and fork together when you have finished as non negotiable.
My OH thinks these things are just the way my family was (read that as you will but I take it to mean shallow and overly concerned with the niceties).

@UnderTheDesk

Who mentioned "shovelling".

Manners are aspirational and if this is truly correct we should begin eating as we are served as the upper classes would have at banquets. At silver-service events, people tend to all be served quite quickly so it is less of a problem.

In 2 of my favourite countries (Italy and Thailand) you begin eating as soon as food arrives. People would consider waiting as a sign that you don't like it. As I said, 'manners' are incredibly relevant to the specific situation and their main purpose is to make all feel comfortable and welcome. DH is a great cook and we both enjoy hosting so often do. If friends or family sat looking at their food whilst I went to and from the kitchen I'd feel embarrassed and under pressure.

Waiting is pretentious and aspirational as it harks to silver service. Growing up, there was a line in the kitchen of me, siblings and father where food was served and we all (including my Mum), walked into the dining room together, sat down and tucked-in.

I don't know what parts of Italy you've been too, but I lived in Rome for a while and it would be terribly rude to start eating until you've been wished a 'Buon Appetito'!
I now live in France, and similarly nobody starts eating until everyone is served and you've wished each other a Bon Appetit.

I've never heard silver service being referenced as a reason for waiting - just politeness and not being an uncontrollable slob.

UnderTheDesk

"shovelling food in", "uncontrollable slob" (I know the first wasn't you). It seems that good manners simply signal an understanding of what is 'right' when to my mind it's to make all feel welcome and relaxed. If it's demonstrating that you have an understanding then it its point for you is exclusionary and not about inclusion.

It's a shame you're more hung up on arbitrary rules than anything else.

"I don't know what parts of Italy you've been too"

Florence for 2 years. My Italian didn't get past quel formaggio è ripugnante. My Latin's better but drew strange glances.

I assume you also "At a dinner party, the lady begins to help the soup … commencing with the gentleman on her right and on her left, and continuing in the same order till all are served."

I'm with you OP, i see all that, plus waiting until all food has arrived before eating, as very basic manners.

My in-laws are sticklers for table manners with my kids and it drives me mad. 'Don't play with your cutlery ' etc. I think manners are important but one should not try and impose them on other people outside your immediate family . I think being a kind and pleasant human being is more important than 100% correct etiquette at the table.

If you're eating a meal with people then it is a social event, not a race to the finish. Of course you wait for the hosts to sit down and join you or for everyone to be served. It's incredibly rude to start before everyone else is ready.

My kids were raised with good table manners because I want them to be able to go anywhere and eat with anyone. If they go to a job interview that includes a lunch, or have to eat dinner with customers, then I want them to know how to behave properly.
Table manners are no different from any other basic manners - please, thank you, giving up your seat for an elderly person. It's part of a skill set your DC need.

I consider all these important. I remind ds's not to do all these .... not lick their knife etc.

Of course table manners are important. Not Victorian. Still as important today.

Elbows off the table here, as DD has form for knocking her water flying - all over the washing on the radiator.

Victorian household here. My dad was given an etiquette course when he was commissioned in the RAF and he was a stickler. People have been known to comment on my son's "beautiful manners".

@bluelady

"My Dad was given an etiquette course when he was commissioned"

Why? So he could show he was better than those without a commission? Again, manners are aspirational and nothing more.

well if I teach my children to 'aspire' to not making other people grossed out at the contents of their open mouths, then it's all good.

I encourage good table manners, speaking with a mouth full of food turns my stomach and I do not tolerate it. I also don't allow using fingers instead of cutlery unless its something like pizza, and I cannot stand faffing about and continually leaving the table during a meal. Those are my non negotiables.

Don't care about elbows

Otherwise I'm constantly banging on about the others

Eat with your mouth closed (9 year old seems to have jaws on a spring though)
Knife/fork together
Wait til everyone's finished & then say thank you to whoever provided the meal and asking to be excused (depending on age, teenager should be able to tell when its ok to leave table)
If you need the toilet say excuse me and leave the table, don't shout 'just going for a poo' when your a teen'
etc etc

Most of this is so they can go to other people's houses and seem to be at last part civilised. Am 100% sure they do not remember it as I have to remind them constantly.

I don't care about elbows. I do it all the time. Also wouldn't even notice in someone's house whether or not people had their knife and fork together, although it is useful as a sign in restaurants.

I do think people should eat with mouth closed and not talk with a mouthful. You should certainly say thank you to whoever provided the meal, and I don't agree with toys/phones at the table or with people just wandering off from the table.

Table manners are important.

Waiting to start.
Waiting until others have finished before leaving the table.
No elbows - like others have said: food to face not face to food
Cutlery held properly - not bothered about knife in right/left or fork in left/right, but must be held properly
No eating with mouth open or talking with food in mouth
Cutlery together - knife edge in, fork tines up
Tearing not cutting bread - doesn't matter whether you tear pieces and butter as you go or tear in half and butter in one go, but never cut
No knife licking
No drinking with a mouthful of food to wash it down

These were the rules I was brought up with. I don't know how 'proper' they are, but most seem to be about not rushing, respecting other people and not spray food everywhere/making unappetising noises.

I brought my children up with the same and I do judge others who have poor table manners.

I wouldn't date someone who had poor table manners.

Oh the tearing the bread, rather than cutting it, is where I would say manners cross the line into snobbishness. (And I do always tear the bread!!!). I cannot think of one single justification.

I sat once having a meal with a man, who was holding his fork like a spoon, but with this hand round it so it looked like a shovel,

Unfortunately for him someone at the next table made a rude comment, and he then started watching me eat my meal, and he asked me to show him how I used mine. he did laugh at how I put a finger on top if the fork and knife. and said he has always wondered why he thought a knife wasn't sharp.

When he had lunch with his parents the next weekend, they too realised that they held their cutlery differently, luckily they all thought it was so funny, and changed to the way the son showed them, so maybe it is just how your family show you...

Knife and fork together to finish and napkin on top if you have one.

I admit that people holding their knives and forks like pens does bring out my inner snob. I blame my mother..:)

It is ridiculous to keep saying it is aspirational as if that's a bad thing - why not aspire to demonstrate respect for others and yourself? If kids visit our house with bad manners I just think the parents are too lazy to teach their kids manners - you're doing your children a favour in the long run by teaching manners. What seems arbitrary in terms of silverware placement etc can just enhance understanding how certain worlds work - when I was a teen I'd a very lucrative p/t job doing silver service waitressing, partly because I knew where everything should go.

Oh the tearing the bread, rather than cutting it, is where I would say manners cross the line into snobbishness. (And I do always tear the bread!!!). I cannot think of one single justification.

Tbh, I agree with you! But it was how I was taught so it's what I've always done. It's not a non negotiable tbf.

It did used to make me smile though when my dad's wife's parents held their cutlery like pens because they thought it looked more refined and sneered at me tearing my bread with my hands...

Tearing bread is more on the side of etiquette than manners to me.
A bit like twirling spaghetti rather than cutting it up.

@vespertillio

How does tearing bread show respect for yourself or others? Or pressing peas onto the back of a fork or not putting butter onto the side plate first or eating soup taking the spoon away from you?

"[manners] can just enhance understanding how certain worlds work"

Interestingly I grew up well aware of my class-based privilege but want to break these notions down as opposed to understand the "different worlds". Despite benefitting from it, I don't like the idea of snobbish barriers to entry although you make it sound like some kind of inner circle you were lucky enough to observe.

I'd never look down on someone who didn't know the 'proper' way to behave but that seems to be the flipside of tearing bread being "non-negotiable". Do you all have sisters called Violet?

Worse than licking yoghurt off the lid, my French exBIL used to scoop it out of the pot with his tongue. He'd only resort to a spoon when his tongue couldn't reach any more.

Truly revolting.

How does tearing bread show respect for yourself or others?

It doesn't. Its simply an example of the Lilliputian debate about which end of a boiled egg should be broken, a way people use to divide Us against Them and look down on those who don't behave as they do.

The main thing with “manners” whether table or just general, is that you should never make anyone feel uncomfortable if they don’t adher to the same “manners” as you.
Because pointing this out is the very height of bad manners.