To be absolutely raging that women's rights and well-being count for absolutely nothing?

[Betti935]

A woman with mental health issues whose psychosis meant she was terrified that men wanted to kill her was placed on a "women only" secure psychiatric ward with someone who was obviously a biological male.

The NHS Trust seems to have labelled her a bigot and has confirmed that they will continue to let anyone self-identify as whatever gender they want and be housed on the sex-segregated ward of their choice, regardless of the needs of or risks to vulnerable women.

The woman in question has since had a relapse of her condition but hasn't felt able to access medical treatment because of this.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/terrified-patient-treated-like-transphobic-bigot-bsfsgrv2p

The problem here is that a man has been validated as a woman on his say so.
Once a delusion is upheld there's really no trouble-free way to proceed.
There's no point in comparing this to any other phobia a patient might have because there are two patients involved (rather than a patient and a spider) and the source of fear is also a person whose needs must be considered- although I get the point in mentioning such things. It's an impossible situation once you buy into the lie.
If there were no such ideal as single sex wards then it would likely be much less of an issue. Would segregation be offered on a case by case basis if a man was afraid of chiropodists or a white woman was afraid of black women (or vice versa)?
I doubt it.
But sex segreation is an ideal, even if it's not always feasible, which is why the mtt person was in a "female" ward (erroneously IMO) in the first place.
This situation is merely highlights the ridiculous position and the troublesome and potentially harmful effects of believing in or endorsing the idea that a man can become a woman. It's frankly a crock of shit and a quite frightening one at that.

There were two delusional patients in this situation, it's not just an ill woman and an ill transwoman.
The trust prioritised the needs of the delusional male over those of the delusional female, and colluded in the delusion of the male.
This is not equality.

absolutely agree

^The cruel trick of demanding that women already struggling with mental illness not only accept that a man is a woman because of an invisible, intangible, self proclaimed 'female essence', BUT also that THEIR female bodies and experiences are irrelevant AND THAT THEY TOO are only female because of invisible female brain essence, hence all females together on a ward, what's your problem.
There can't be much that is more cruel than to try to convince patients with mental health problems to release their grip on reality and pretend to accept a lie.^

quite

Do you think that will work for the people dying on trolleys in corridors?

I think there is the possibility that people will try and sue the NHS over it.

But that's not the point either is it?

Patients lying in corridors dying is a straw man argument to guilt women out of trying to assert their rights.

Same old shit.

Eat all your dinner, and think of the starving children in Africa like a nice good little girl.

From the article linked to in OP;

''When she raised her concerns with hospital staff, however, she said she was not taken seriously and her medical notes implied that she was a “transphobic bigot”.

How is a mental health nurse permitted to write that in someones medical notes?

They shouldn't.

Its not listening to the patient properly. A mental health nurse should unpick the fear and ask the question 'why?'.

Its important.

agree redtoothbrush
but the nurse in this situation should not (IMO) should not have had to unpick this because the pretend woman should not have been there in the first place

RedToothBrush, we can have all sorts of rights but the problem is we aren't paying enough for them. It would be great if the NHS could do everything we wanted but it would cost money and the Great British public have voted for a lower cost service.

It won't help moaning about it we have to go out and vote at the next election and make sure the NHS, Social Services and education are properly funded.

So the argument is, we can not afford rights and should not try and force the government to do something, so they carry out their duty to uphold the rights we are supposed to have.

Ok.

As long as we all understand what you are saying is that we shouldn't even try and have rights and we should just role over, because money is more important.

(Whatever ).

Trouble is grannytomine, that's 'whataboutery'.
We have political parties that are promoting this shit - transwomen are real women, the penis is a female organ and it's fine for children to be medicated in order to change their sex. All the funding in the world won't change this situation. For the first time in many many decades I won't be voting until / unless a party wakes up to the pervasive misogyny going on here.

guardian the discussion broadened out a bit, not unusual. So we were told NHS have to have single sex wards, not happening well not where I am. We can demand our rights, OK so I was on a specialist cardiac ward with two other women. Do you think they were going to open another ward for us, do you think they had enough of the specialist cardiac nurses to staff two wards? Would the 20 + men on the cardiac ward be at risk if specialist nurses were moved? It isn't easy is it and we need more money to train and employ enough staff. Until then the NHS has to prioritise.

I am just being realistic.

Being 'realistic' is what women do. They roll over because they are told constantly to lower their expectations and in doing so, they become a lower political priority. We are mugs for just accepting this as 'realistic' as a result.

Money is ALWAYS found for political priorities.

At the same time, ironically, we have transwomen demanding they should be given all sorts of plastic surgery and hormone therapy on the NHS without a hint of responsibility to how this might affect anyone else wanting care on the NHS.

Women's own attitudes to health mean they end up bottom of the pile. Women have to be forcibly told its ok to be 'entitled' in an attempt to get the barest minimum standards of care.

Women get lower standards of care for a variety of medical conditions compared to men. Why is that? I don't see men suffering from the same sort of ludicrous guilt or pressure to 'accept what you are given' in the same way.

I'm sorry, but if you want to normalise dying in an NHS corridor then the best way to do that, is to be complicit in lowing expectations of what is acceptable in health care, in a race to the bottom.

Being 'realistic' is simply devaluing the importance of health in the government's political priorities.

I think the people on trolleys in corridors are both men and women, actually children are waiting hours to be admitted as well.

You say women get worse treatment, well men don't get routine screening in the way women do for breast and cervical cancer until they get the AAA screening at 65, boys don't get vaccination for HPV the way girls do so I don't think there is some sort of conspiracy to deprive women of treatment. Which conditions do you mean when you say women get worse treatment than men for a variety of conditions, could you tell me what conditions you are referring to as in my family I have never witnessed that. I suppose you could say me being treated on a mainly male ward is an example but as I said earlier it was a condition that men seem to suffer from more than women and being on that ward meant I got the specialist care I needed so it was better for me than being on a single sex ward without the specialist care.

NHS care is under terrible pressure, my son had a condition that was potentially life threatening, he was admitted as an emergency on 3 occasions in less than 2 years before the NHS would approve him having surgery. We had just made arrangements for him to have the surgery privately as we didn't feel it was reasonable to wait any longer when he had his 3rd admission so he did have the surgery on the NHS in the end.

Blaming the NHS for the reduction in beds, the bed blocking by people who need to go into a care home isn't being helpful. The people you need to challenge are the government to give more funding and voters to vote in a government who will properly fund the NHS. People suggesting suing the NHS aren't helping anyone, if the NHS are paying legal fees and compensation there will be less money to spend on patients.

and I think you are deliberately missing the point and are trying to tell women to shut up.

I'm not missing the point. Go back and have a read, someone said the NHS wouldn't make someone have a bed next to a red head if they didn't like them and someone else said the NHS has to have single sex wards. I pointed out that neither is true.

If people keep challenging me on that then I will keep on answering if I feel like it.

You didn't elaborate on all the conditions that women get worse treatment for than men do. I will still like to know what they are.

It might be hard for you to get but I would like a first class NHS for everyone. Divide and conquer only works because people let it.

grannytomine, you are SPECTACULARLY missing the point. The woman involved here literally personally protected this facility from closure. Mixed-sex pscyh facilities aren't an option, she would just have been sent further away.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2328773-Guest-post-Mumsnet-is-like-having-a-thousand-extra-sisters-you-never-knew-you-needed?messages=100&pg=1

I would be interested to know if the NHS would put a transman who had had no medical intervention or hormones, in the men only secure psychiatric ward.

I also have been on a mixed ward, when I was 18, only for one night.

I was the only female person on there and I did feel a bit freaked out when the lights went down at night. Nothing happened but 2 men in particular were just staring at me all evening.

When it comes to wards where there are nurses present all the time then that's one thing, and they're usually the wards where people are too ill to be up and about anyway.

When it comes to wards where nurses are in a room away from there / do rounds etc then I say no to mixed wards.

NAMALT but it used to be understood the reasons why without anyone having to explain it. What has happened that we are now all having to pretend that there is no risk from men towards women, no more than of women towards women , that to say there is a risk is discriminating against men, while meanwhile being told to not accept drinks from stangers (strange men), not to go home with them, stay with friends, get cabs, and we have newspapers full of #metoo and warboys...

IF you remove all the single sex protocols,

THEN getting medical assistance becomes much more difficult / dangerous / unpleasant for women and girls so less go

THEN funds are freed up to pay for better treatment for men

Sounds good?

According to their guidelines they should, upabitlate

There's a detailed NHS document explaining how critical same sex accommodation is for the dignity of all patients, replete with dozens of clarifications on justified vs unjustified breaches and the fines that will be incurred. All clearly dependent upon SEX, not gender.

Followed by a comprehensive unravelling of every single example with the caveat that rides a coach and horses through the entire principle....
Unless transgender, which trumps everything.

There's even a cute sentence about, if in doubt about the sex of an unconscious patient, medics should infer the sex NOT from their anatomy (how silly) but from their presentation and clothing style.

Proving that the whole world is now untethered from reality and I want to start again on Mars please.

If the NHS would lock a vulnerably mentally ill intact woman in a men only mental health facility on the basis of the fact she has short hair and was wearing trousers then that's, um. Yeah they wouldn't though would they.

Even if a woman insisted on being locked in with the men they would say no, get the paperwork to say that she didn't have the faculties to make that decision and they had to safeguard her.

Same I suspect as a non surgery non hormone transman who wanted to go in a mens prison.

Then, the trans person would be deemed not able to make good decisions, I suspect. It's only TW who need to be put wherever they want. For some reason, their wishes are more important. Wonder why that could possibly be...

I wonder why the assessment of risk would be different as well.

It's almost as if there's something to do with bodies and crime and risks and stuff in there somewhere but I can't quite put my finger on it...

grannytomine, you are SPECTACULARLY missing the point No I'm not, I was answering points other people made. I suppose you don't want anyone to say that people are wrong when they say there aren't any mixed sex NHS wards or that if you didn't want to be in a bed by a red head then they wouldn't put you next to them? What is the point of a discussion if people can't reply to the points made? Maybe go back and ask those people to check their facts before they make comments.

I still don't know what all these conditions are that men are getting better treatment for than women get.