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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To not automatically support my male friend (potentially triggering!)

383 replies

User14356 · 10/01/2018 02:21

Agh this is keeping me up tonight, sorry if it’s a bit rambly

My very close, male friend (totally platonic) picked up a woman last weekend at a club. I had left earlier in the night, from what I was told, they were drunk, she had a screaming argument with her friend and then he took her home. Things were done but they didn’t have full sex.

Cut to today and I get a worried message from my male friend saying he has been contacted by this girl saying he took advantage, he is a sex offender and that she’s going to go to the police. This text message was sent at 4am and badly spelled so the assumption is that she was drunk.

I want to believe my friend, but I’m now massively morally split, between not wanting to call this girl a liar, but then not being there for him if the accusations are blown out or false. For now, I’ve been supportive. Is there any way to manage this situation without taking sides- AIBU to have doubts about my friend?

OP posts:

Pumperthepumper · 11/01/2018 13:34

Man getting into fight = aggressive
Woman getting into fight = vulnerable

Is this right?

Not quite.

Woman having screaming (aggressive, if you want, although the OP doesn’t say) arguement with her friend and leaving with a stranger = probably more vulnerable than:

Woman who didn’t have a screaming fight with her friend but instead had a delightful night out and waved her friend off as she left with stranger.

ReanimatedSGB · 11/01/2018 13:38

Hmm. I'd be a little less uncritically supportive of a male friend who obviously has contempt for women (from the OP's more recent post).
It could be, of course, that just this once he has picked up a woman more volatile than usual, and that most of the women he humps&dumps acknowledge to themselves that they were willing at the time and just write him off after he goes on to ignore them.
This makes him a dickhead, but not necessarily a rapist.
However, if the picking up drunk, distressed women is a regular thing, then I think there is quite a strong possibility that he is an opportunistic type of rapist. A man like that will choose women who are, basically, unlikely to be believed when they complain.

grannytomine · 11/01/2018 13:39

if both are drunk the person that is charged/seen as a suspect is usually the one that initiated the act. (Who is generally assumed to be male. Which is definitely a discussion to be had.) Are we living in the 19th century, women lie back and think of England?

The 21st century is mad.

MuseumOfCurry · 11/01/2018 13:40

I’m inferring that most people on this thread would consider a man who has a shouting match in a bar aggressive. I know I would. I’m just wondering why it’s different for the woman in question.

Most of the women I’ve observed having fights in bars (mind you it’s been a long while) are pretty capable of looking after themselves, and I would not have described as ‘vulnerable’.

MuseumOfCurry · 11/01/2018 13:41

However, if the picking up drunk, distressed women is a regular thing, then I think there is quite a strong possibility that he is an opportunistic type of rapist

Totally agree.

Pumperthepumper · 11/01/2018 13:49

MuseumofCurry but it’s not the fight that makes her vulnerable - it’s the leaving with a stranger AFTER the fight that makes her vulnerable. It’s her situation with her friend that makes her vulnerable.

PatriarchyPersonified · 11/01/2018 13:51

Graphista

What nonsense is this? Drunken consent is still consent." NO IT ISN'T not even legally! DEFINITELY not morally, seems op's friend isn't the only person needs to learn about consent.

Legally yes it is. Morally is a separate matter.

Think about it. If what you are saying is true, then I'm willing to bet that a lot of people reading this, (including myself) has been raped hundreds of times in their life. Is that what you are saying?

I think you are getting drunken consent confused with consent given when someone is so drunk they cannot comprehend what is going on. Which is obviously a crime. As several posters have said earlier, its not a simplistic, binary, drunk-sober dichotomy.

TammySwansonTwo · 11/01/2018 14:38

Anyone who says they would never believe this about their friend / relative / colleague etc is being very naive. Not because all men are rapists, but because in most cases the ones who are are extremely good at avoiding detection.

I was abused by my father, no one would have ever believed he would do such a thing, which is how he got away with it. I've also been raped or assaulted by multiple friends / boyfriends, none of whom have ever been so much as arrested, and none of whom would ever arouse suspicion from others, which is why I trusted them myself.

You cannot ever know whether someone has committed a crime like this, whether they're an acquaintance or your spouse. And the myth that most sexual assaults are committed by over predators rather than opportunists doesn't help matters.

That's not to say this guy did it, but hell would freeze over before I would ever assert that someone definitely didn't sexually assault someone else unless I was an actual witness because it's impossible to say that.

ShatnersWig · 11/01/2018 14:58

Tammy I am sorry that happened to you, please take that as read. But the OP actually asked people if she was unreasonable not to support her friend. Not to not believe him. I think the two are separate. I think it's perfectly possibly to support someone in the situation her friend is in without necessarily making a judgement on believing or not believing with the very small amount of information she (and we) have been given.

The fact remains, though, that we do not know whether the woman was severely incapacitated. You stated that the OP admitted that fact when she did no such thing. No one has.

Nlimoi · 11/01/2018 15:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TammySwansonTwo · 11/01/2018 15:24

People here have said that the fact she posted means she must distrust him to an extent where they'd never ever believe it about some of the men they know - I'd say that's massively naive.

You're right - I read through the post and inferred her condition. I suspect that someone who has a screaming row with a friend and then has to be escorted home by a stranger was probably extremely drunk. And if she wasn't that drunk, why would he be framing at as doing her a favour by taking her home?

ShatnersWig · 11/01/2018 15:35

Tammy You're doing it again. You're seeing things that no one has stated and making assumptions or inferring things.

I suspect that someone who has a screaming row with a friend and then has to be escorted home by a stranger was probably extremely drunk.

Where has the OP stated that the woman HAD to be escorted? He took her home. Possibly willingly. They may have discussed doing so prior to the argument with the friend. Either way, you can be drunk and chose to go home with someone. It does not necessarily mean you HAD to be escorted or that you MUST have been extremely drunk to do so.

And if she wasn't that drunk, why would he be framing at as doing her a favour by taking her home?

Please show me where the OP tells us that her friend was doing this woman a favour by taking her home? I can't find that.

MuseumOfCurry · 11/01/2018 15:38

MuseumofCurry but it’s not the fight that makes her vulnerable - it’s the leaving with a stranger AFTER the fight that makes her vulnerable. It’s her situation with her friend that makes her vulnerable.

This seems circular to me. He's preyed upon a vulnerable woman. Why was she vulnerable? Because she went home with him. See the problem here?

MuseumOfCurry · 11/01/2018 15:42

Tammy, I just re-read the OP and there's no mention of him seeing himself as doing her a favour.

He no more 'escorted' her home than she did him.

Graphista · 11/01/2018 16:15

Please explain where you got this idea?

Common sense! She's JUST had an argument with a friend, she's drunk, op herself describes him as a "pig" in his dealings with women so I don't believe he was genuinely interested in helping her.

"I think it’s fair to suggest that a woman who has a screaming arguement with her friend then goes off with a stranger is more vulnerable than a woman who is having a happy night out with her friend and leaves, still happy, with a stranger, yes." Thank you

"Most of the women I’ve observed having fights in bars (mind you it’s been a long while) are pretty capable of looking after themselves, and I would not have described as ‘vulnerable’." Really? Against a bigger stronger person?

"However, if the picking up drunk, distressed women is a regular thing, then I think there is quite a strong possibility that he is an opportunistic type of rapist

Totally agree." Me too

Wherearemymarbles · 11/01/2018 16:17

Its al Guess work and assumption

We dont know how drunk they were

We dont know if she was vulnerable or not or if screaming matches with friends are part of her Saturday night ritual.

We dont know if he just took her home or she asked him to take her to his place

We dont know if she consented or if she was too drunk to consent or he if was too drunk to know she was too drunk to consent.

So to keep it simple OP keep an open mind and support him as much as you feel able to do.

Graphista · 11/01/2018 16:18

Most rapes and sexual assaults are not overtly aggressive acts but occur due to poor understanding of true consent and the entrenched sense of entitlement certain men have toward women's bodies.

MuseumOfCurry · 11/01/2018 16:26

Common sense! She's JUST had an argument with a friend, she's drunk, op herself describes him as a "pig" in his dealings with women so I don't believe he was genuinely interested in helping her.

I don't think he was trying to help her either. I think they fancied each other and decided to go home together.

Please do bear in mind, he was drunk too. Why do you continually refer to her as drunk state but not his?

Do you think that men who fight at bars are vulnerable? Or do you think they're aggressive?

WendyHadWings · 11/01/2018 16:38

Jesus this thread is awful.

ReanimatedSGB · 11/01/2018 16:46

OP updated a couple of pages back - her friend has form for treating women in ways that are a bit... unkind (though not necessarily abusive). He took the woman to his home, not hers: presumably she wasn't unwilling to go to his home (so we can rule out the idea of him offering to 'escort her home' and then being unwilling to leave/behaving as though his 'good deed' entitled him to sex once he had his foot through the door).
What is still unknown (and of course OP may not know, either) is whether the women he usually has sex with (and then ignores or treats with contempt) are generally enthusiastic or willing to have sex because he is charming/attractive and they are horny, whether he hints strongly that sex is going to be the start of a relationship or not - or whether they are almost always very drunk, upset about something, or come across as 'crazy' and therefore he feels that no one will think anything of his predatory behaviour other than 'well, it's her own fault for being a drunken slapper'.

Having a lot of one night stands isn't bad behaviour. Leading people on by implying that sex now will lead to a relationship and/or turning contemptuous and unkind after sex is not criminal behaviour but it's not very ethical.
Singling out vulnerable people, presenting yourself as some sort of protector and then pushing ahead with sex because you think you're entitled to it... that's a lot more worrying.

Dozer · 11/01/2018 16:51

So you think he’s previously treated gfs badly.

I would be more inclined to believe the woman. Otherwise it’d be “I believe you......unless I don’t know you but know and like the man you’ve accused”.

With the legal system stacked against sexual assault victims someone not charged or found guilty isn’t necessarily innocent.

TammySwansonTwo · 11/01/2018 17:25

His framing of the situation to OP is that she was drunk and had a screaming row with a friend and he took her home. If this were two strangers mutually agreeing to go home together, I suspect his presentation of the situation would be different. Whether explicitly stated or not, he's attempting to paint himself as the good guy, while OP's experience suggests he's not a good guy at all.

Women are constantly told to modify their behaviour to protect themselves from men - don't walk there, don't wear that, don't drink this, don't do that. But suggest it's not a brilliant idea for a man to take home a stranger who's clearly drunk to the point she's having a screaming row in public, and there's uproar. Talk about double standards.

ShatnersWig · 11/01/2018 17:28

I give up.

MNHQ

SophieLMumsnet · 11/01/2018 17:28

Hi everyone,

We just wanted to remind folks of our We Believe You campaign which was established to challenge some of the myths associated with sexual assault and rape. We don't condone victim-blaming on Mumsnet, and will remove reported posts.

Thanks

MuseumOfCurry · 11/01/2018 17:30

He’s shown terrible judgement, as has she.

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