To not automatically support my male friend (potentially triggering!)

[User14356]

Agh this is keeping me up tonight, sorry if it’s a bit rambly

My very close, male friend (totally platonic) picked up a woman last weekend at a club. I had left earlier in the night, from what I was told, they were drunk, she had a screaming argument with her friend and then he took her home. Things were done but they didn’t have full sex.

Cut to today and I get a worried message from my male friend saying he has been contacted by this girl saying he took advantage, he is a sex offender and that she’s going to go to the police. This text message was sent at 4am and badly spelled so the assumption is that she was drunk.

I want to believe my friend, but I’m now massively morally split, between not wanting to call this girl a liar, but then not being there for him if the accusations are blown out or false. For now, I’ve been supportive. Is there any way to manage this situation without taking sides- AIBU to have doubts about my friend?

What sort of victim-blaming is going on here MNHQ, and more importantly, how have you determined who’s the victim in this case?

This seems circular to me. He's preyed upon a vulnerable woman. Why was she vulnerable? Because she went home with him. See the problem here?

Not really MuseumofCurry no, because that’s not what I said. For the third time now: she’s vulnerable because of the situation with her friend, not because she went home with a stranger. The vulnerability had already happened before she went home with him. You seem absolutely determined not to see that.

And again, with the ‘do you see men who fight in bars as vulnerable’ question I’ve already answered - it’s not the FIGHTING that makes her vulnerable, it’s the falling out with her friend - see scenarios I posted above. Do you seriously not see the difference between those two women?

Having an argument, even a screaming one does NOT automatically make anyone, male or female vulnerable. It MAY. But we don't know the two people in question and the OP only knows one of them.

The amount of speculation or simply seeing things that haven't been stated are really quite huge leaps - and disingenuous to women in many respects - is astonishing.

As is MNHQ's comment.

Fighting with a friend while drunk in public may indicate ‘fragile’, more likely to my mind it indicates ‘aggressive’.

I know what we would think of a man doing this. We’d think ‘aggressive’ and swerve him.

I think this guy had bad judgement to get involved with this woman. But that’s not a crime.

Curry, FFS, the fighting is not what makes her vulnerable! The aftermath of the fight, the situation as left with the friend, is what makes her vulnerable!

*potentially vulnerable, before anyone quotes that as me saying she ABSOLUTELY DEFINITELY was vulnerable.

OP UPDATED a few pages back to say that her friend has form for behaving badly towards women (having sex then ignoring them). That doesn't necessarily make him a rapist but it makes him... less of a nice person and may indicate a tendency to 'cross the line'.

Reanimated

May indicate a tendency to 'cross the line'

No it doesn't! How does not texting women back after you have been on a date/had sex have any bearing on your likelihood to be a rapist?

I've known women in the past who don't text men they have had sex with, does that make them more like to be sex offenders?

What sort of victim-blaming is going on here MNHQ, and more importantly, how have you determined who’s the victim in this case

I second this. I don’t want to be part of a community that dictates who the victim is in a given situation without any investigation, but based on what genitals they were born with.

PP - I said it may. I don't know the bloke. There's nothing wrong with having a lot of one night stands and no further contact - loads of people do it. Sometimes one person gets hurt, and that's sad but not necessarily indicative of the other having done anything wrong. Everyone's allowed to bail out of any relationship/flirtation/shag at any point, for any reason.

But it might indicate a level of contempt for women that isn't terribly healthy or terribly ethical (think Roosh V and all those PUA arseholes - having sex with women is about point-scoring, not having mutually enjoyable fun) and might indicate that he isn't too fussy about whether a partner consents fully or not. As I asked OP earlier, it would be a bit more worrying if the women he picks up and takes home are always, or nearly always, not just drunk but distressed or having a shit night.

Reanimated

It might indicate a level of contempt for women

Now we are into fantasy fiction land. It might indicate that, yes. It might also indicate that he is dreadfully shy when he hasn't had a drink, it might indicate he has emotional problems that make it difficult to form lasting relationships, it might even indicate that he is a secret serial killer. Or it might indicate one of a thousand other different scenarios. It might even mean nothing at all.

Without any other information about this guy, it could mean literally anything, or nothing.

It's interesting that the first thing you assumed it meant was that he was more likely to be a sex offender. Says a lot more about you than it does about him.

Er, no. Hang on, I remember you - lot of mansplaining on other threads and boo hoo, feminists are so nasty and such manhaters...

Reanimated

Not a particularly accurate summary of my previous posts but fine.

Even more interesting that your knee jerk reaction is a personal attack on me instead of addressing my points. You don't come across as a very nice person.

What sort of victim-blaming is going on here MNHQ, and more importantly, how have you determined who’s the victim in this case

Well patriarchy was blethering on about them assaulting each other

So i reckon MNHQ is hedging their bets and doesnt want us to victim blame anyone

I think i might have managed a fair few years on here NOT victim blaming so i reckon i will be ok for the thread

Not a particularly accurate summary of my previous posts but fine

Nah

reanimated has it pretty spot on, apart from the boo hoo bit maybe

I don't remember you actually crying

There was that one he started where he got into an argument with a female colleague and denied rape culture exsists in the UK, lots of feminist bashing on that one.

I think the ‘victim blaming’ posts MNHQ were referring to were the ones who said that women lied about rape regularly for money or to get an easy divorce.

Yep i think you are right plumper

They were dreadful

(Makes more sense than my theory )

Nope, I agree with your theory too Rufus. I think a general ‘dont victim blame’ is pretty sound advice!

I’m saddened, but not surprised, to see Mumsnet have censored hundreds of posts on this thread on the basis that they ‘won’t tolerate victim blaming’, despite the fact that multiple posters on here from opposing viewpoints had thanked each other for their civility in discussing a contentious subject.

It strikes me that MN can’t handle anything that challenges its ‘we believe you’ orthodoxy, regardless of whether it’s based in empirical fact or not. This thread was respectful and far more civil than most on AIBU. At no point was any victim blamed.

Is anyone else as disgusted as I am by this trite, censorious and heavy-handed response from MN HQ?

Or... does it mean that some of MN’s more er, extremist posters have reported hundreds of others’ posts for ‘victim blaming’ because...well, they just disagreed with them?

Pumper

Denied rape culture exsists

Did I? When?

babycham

Aah

So poster reports for victim blaming and then MNHQ looks and goes 'well i cant see how its victim blaming but anonymousposter says it is so i will delete'

denied rape culture exsists IN THE UK was the bit of the quote you missed out, and lucky for you I have nothing better to do than this. Here you go, 06/12/17, by PatriarchyPersonified

I think there is a tendency to miss my point here and argue against a straw man. I'm saying that you cannot classify the UK as a Rape Culture. Not that rape and sexual assault do not exist.

As a few posters have identified, you are actually safer in the UK from sexual violence than nearly anywhere else in the world. That doesn't mean we shouldn't care about the victims. My objection is how these things are being framed.

If we categorise the UK as a Rape Culture, despite it being one of the safest places in the world in regards to sexual violence, then words simply don't have meaning anymore.

If that is true I'd ask you to name somewhere that isn't a Rape Culture? I'd also ask what the criteria would be for the UK to not be one?

It feels like some people believe that if anyone anywhere is ever raped or sexually assaulted, it means we live in a Rape Culture. Where does that ever end? The term becomes meaningless.

What posts were deleted

Im really confused

baby are you saying that mnhq are censoring potential posts on this thread