To not automatically support my male friend (potentially triggering!)

[User14356]

Agh this is keeping me up tonight, sorry if it’s a bit rambly

My very close, male friend (totally platonic) picked up a woman last weekend at a club. I had left earlier in the night, from what I was told, they were drunk, she had a screaming argument with her friend and then he took her home. Things were done but they didn’t have full sex.

Cut to today and I get a worried message from my male friend saying he has been contacted by this girl saying he took advantage, he is a sex offender and that she’s going to go to the police. This text message was sent at 4am and badly spelled so the assumption is that she was drunk.

I want to believe my friend, but I’m now massively morally split, between not wanting to call this girl a liar, but then not being there for him if the accusations are blown out or false. For now, I’ve been supportive. Is there any way to manage this situation without taking sides- AIBU to have doubts about my friend?

No Im not suggesting historical rapes should be ignored. Im saying that if someone doesn't report a crime for decades it's increasingly difficult to get to the truth. I don't want to ignore genuine victims but I do want better access to justice. What victims of assault and rape suffer is awful, but that doesn't mean that we should ignore false accusations either. Or assume that a man must be guilty because hes been accused. Or effectively ruin his life before the system has even decided that there's a case to answer. Everyone is entitled to justice and just because false accusations are reported as a tiny minority doesn't make it so. There's no political will to actually collect statistics or consider any accusation as anything other than a guilty verdict or a failed prosecution. That's not right.

And I agree we need to help ALL the victims. Until proper research is done and proper statistics kept, anecdotal evidence is going to have to steer the conversation. Frankly, the assumption that no woman lies and every man accused is guilty insults everyone. Even if a tiny minority are falsely accused. So what? Are you arguing that if a tiny minority of women were raped or assaulted that they should be ignored? Surely not.

Goodnight.

The blindingly obvious fact is that there are vast numbers of rapes and sexual assaults, and a very very much smaller number of false allegations, whatever statistics or anecdotes you choose to look at. Perhaps we should focus efforts proportionately on the situation? This obsession with protecting men, innocent and guilty, at all costs is bizarre.

Oh, please! If that's what you've taken from this conversation I despair.

Despair away, you've spectacularly failed to convince me that you've got any interest in reducing the number of victims of rape/sexual assault, or making it more likely that they'll be able to bring their attacker to justice.

Thats a separate conversation. One I'm happy to have another time.

I’d take the side of the person I knew best, making a judgement call on what I know of their character, until they are proven either innocent or guilty.

Lets remember... regret does not equal rape.

People would be a lot better off generally if dickheads remembered that.

Also if they were both a similar level of drunk ( able to speak and understand) then surely either both could consent or neither could.

OP here, sorry for not returning sooner, I’ve been at work and mega busy

I should clarify a few things. He took her back to his house. The woman and her female friend had had an argument not her and my friend.

I spoke to him tonight and a bit more has come out the woodwork. Before I start I should clarify I don’t neccessarily have doubts because of his usual behaviour, just that I am reluctant not to take the side of a woman which is always what I assumed I would do.

She’s text him a few more times, this time in the day. I read the texts and she does seem very angry, but she is rambly and unclear and sorry, seems to be on the warpath. It turns out she is a bit unhinged from what we can gather from her Facebook page, she posts incredibly angry and threatening statuses and seems to hate the world. Still, I can’t bring myself to deny her completely- she’s messaged about this multiple times and she has nothing to gain except dare I say attention. She’s obviously extremely emotionally immature.

My friend can be a pig. He’s slept with women and ignore their feelings/advances afterward which has sometimes lead to arguments. But I don’t think he would rape or have sex without consent.

For now it doesn’t appear that she’s going to the police. I’m giving careful support to him, and have told him to screenshot everything.

Sorry no I'd be dropping him like a hot potato!

He took a drunk (therefore UNABLE to consent), upset, emotional woman to HIS home (if he really WAS some "knight" he'd have taken/seen her safely to HER home) I would say not to comfort her but because she was vulnerable (I don't mean to a planned assault but to a sexual advance in the guise of comfort) and he fancied her.

You only have his word for full sex not having taken place (sounds like minimising to me), you're already being dragged in to stalking her on fb (or at least he is) and making judgments on the kind of person she is based on only this and a few texts. Neither of you know her well enough to judge her at all. Given women's experience generally it's entirely POSSIBLE too that she's been a victim of sexual abuse/assault in the past, he did assault her and that's triggered other memories.

As a few other pps have said at the VERY LEAST (you yourself describe him as a pig in how he treats women - though that makes me wonder why you're even platonic friends with him) he needs educated PROPERLY on consent and respect.

He sounds horrible tbh, Op from your last post.

She had a screaming argument with a friend yet he still decided to take her to his place with a view to sex?

Now you think she might be unhinged because you've looked at her FB page??

Frankly, the assumption that no woman lies and every man accused is guilty insults everyone

And which poster has said that?

I've come to this late, but seriously, some of the posts on here are bloody scary from a male perspective.

To summarise, the OPs friend had some kind of presumably sexual encounter with a woman when they were both drunk, who is now accusing him of 'taking advantage' and that she is going to go to the police.

The fact they went to his house to do it and that he has a history of not replying to text messages from women he has slept with is now evidence that he definitely did it and she should drop him like a hot potato, the dirty rapist.

If they had gone to her house instead, would that have been better? Why?

Also if they were both drunk, and drunken people can't make decisions about having sex, then who assaulted who?

The woman sounds pretty unstable to me, unstable people often don't make logical decisions. Anyone asking "what does she have to gain from a false accusation" are assuming she is a 100% sensible, rational person. She doesn't sound like one.

Yes he doesn't sound very pleasant

( and yes before anyone jumps in i know that doesnt mean he did it )

So, we have new information.

My friend can be a pig. He’s slept with women and ignore their feelings/advances afterward which has sometimes lead to arguments.

Had you included that in your OP might have made people understand why you might not be so willing to automatically back your friend. However, still doesn't mean he committed an offence.

I read the texts and she does seem very angry, but she is rambly and unclear and sorry, seems to be on the warpath. It turns out she is a bit unhinged from what we can gather from her Facebook page, she posts incredibly angry and threatening statuses and seems to hate the world

I wonder if she may be bi-polar. This sounds extremely similar to someone I know who was bi-polar. If she stopped taking her lithium she could behave extremely erratically. There were several times where she took a guy home - or went to his - having picked them up the same night, had sex, and then next day assume they were in a relationship and if the bloke didn't want to move that quickly she went ballistic. Attacked two guys, stalked another. She'd make passes at friends by literally grabbing their crotches during what would seem to be a normal conversation. She never behaved like this during non-manic episodes.

Still doesn't mean she wasn't attacked, just as it doesn't mean she was. You have no idea. We have no idea.

I would still support a friend until I knew more but I wouldn't have a friend who treated women like your friend did in the first place.

He took a drunk (therefore UNABLE to consent), upset, emotional woman to HIS home (if he really WAS some "knight" he'd have taken/seen her safely to HER home) I would say not to comfort her but because she was vulnerable (I don't mean to a planned assault but to a sexual advance in the guise of comfort) and he fancied her.

If he were sober and she drunk, the tone of the conversation would be different and most of us (me included) would be calling this rape. I have a 15 year old son who I have drummed this into.

Because he was drunk too, they're in parity in this sense.

That he has form for ignoring women after sex is pretty inconclusive. Unless, of course, you'd be willing to discount the possibility that a man is a rapist based on the fact that he follows up on post-sex texts.

My friend can be a pig. He’s slept with women and ignore their feelings/advances afterward which has sometimes lead to arguments. But I don’t think he would rape or have sex without consent.

Well... if he does ignore their feelings? That might very well be rape in certain circumstances.

For now it doesn’t appear that she’s going to the police. I’m giving careful support to him, and have told him to screenshot everything.

As I said, you can support him without calling her a liar / attacking her etc.

However:
If he is indeed innocent? He is being threatened and harassed by this woman and his goal should be to stop this unreasonable and irrational behaviour.
If he decides to just ‘take it’ / hope she’ll ‘get over it’ or that it somehow dies down? This would make me extremely suspicious.

Well... if he does ignore their feelings? That might very well be rape in certain circumstances.

I know that his behaviour after sex / ignoring invites etc doesn’t mean he’s a rapist.

However, slight intoxication can make people reckless / disregard other people’s feelings.

How drunk was he? I personally (if he was my friend) would wonder whether both of them were drunk or whether she was totally shitfaced and he maybe just slightly tipsy... (or the other way around).

How drunk was he? I personally (if he was my friend) would wonder whether both of them were drunk or whether she was totally shitfaced and he maybe just slightly tipsy... (or the other way around).

This seems relevant. In any case, they both have terrible judgement.

If he decides to just ‘take it’ / hope she’ll ‘get over it’ or that it somehow dies down? This would make me extremely suspicious.

Why? Just the accusation of rape/sexual assault can be enough to completely ruin a mans life, cause him to lose his job and his friends and family. If I was in the OP's friends position I'd be terrified and want the whole thing to just go away.

Particularly when you consider some of the opinions expressed on this thread, 'balance of probability he did it'. Really?!

If they had gone to her house instead, would that have been better? Why?

Because we know she had a fight with her friend and was vulnerable. Taking her back to her house puts more control of the situation in her hands, and taking her back to his gives him the control.

Also if they were both drunk, and drunken people can't make decisions about having sex, then who assaulted who?

But he’s not claiming assault, she is. So the assaulted person is the one who says they were assaulted.

Graphista

He took a drunk (therefore UNABLE to consent)

What nonsense is this? Drunken consent is still consent. By that logic I have been raped (or at least sexually assaulted) hundreds of times in my life, as have the majority of people reading this.

Pumperthepumper

But he’s not claiming assault, she is. So the assaulted person is the one who says they were assaulted.

So a crime only takes place if its reported? If not then it never happened? Are you sure you want to go with that line of reasoning?

Basically the person who has been assaulted is the one who gets the complaint in first?

Why? Just the accusation of rape/sexual assault can be enough to completely ruin a mans life, cause him to lose his job and his friends and family. If I was in the OP's friends position I'd be terrified and want the whole thing to just go away.

Want it to go away? Yes. Could unfounded accusations ruin a man’s life? Yes! Which is why I’d expect him to take this seriously, talk to a solicitor, explore his legal options etc. Be pro-active...

PatriarchyPersonified

I can’t see how you got this:

So a crime only takes place if its reported? If not then it never happened? Are you sure you want to go with that line of reasoning?

...from what I said. I think it’s pretty obvious that the alleged wronged person is the person who feels they were wronged.

Basically the person who has been assaulted is the one who gets the complaint in first?

You can’t be serious with this, surely. The person who has been assaulted is the person who feels they were assaulted - if the OP’s friend thought he had been taken advantage of, why didn’t he contact the woman? Answer: because he didn’t think he had been taken advantage of. But she did. That’s the difference. It’s bizarre you need that spelled out to you.