to be annoyed that church is so boring and missing an opportunity to teach something inspiring

[somethingmustchange]

We rarely go except on visits to MIL. Each time the service is read from exactly the same booklet, the sermon teaches nothing and is just boring reciting of the bible, the hymns are dire and sung terribly by everyone including choir. I always leave feeling depressed and cross that the vicar doesn't try to inspire a new generation or give feelings of hope, happiness, community etc. Then the church goers (all 70 plus apart from maybe 2) have coffee and judge other people that are their supposed friends. How are churches supposed to have a future if they carry on like this?

Coconutella

So it's not all true? Does that mean it's ok then?

For example if I had the ability to kill the first born child of every family in this country and I did it, that would make me the most evil person who has ever lived. Right? So is God evil for doing that to the Egyptians? If not then why not?

If you are going to say it didn't really happen and is just a story then why tell such a story about your God? What kind of a person would worship such a God?

I actually agree with Christopher Hitchens that the New Testament is actually worse than the Old. At least in the Old Testament there was no Hell. If the New Testament is true then gentle Jesus, meek and mild, will condemn me to eternal Hell if I don't love him. Forced to love somebody against my will. Think about that for a second.

I notice you avoided my questions about Hell.

The christian message is horrible.

I should be grateful for a human sacrifice who died for sins I did not commit.

Er right.

if i was god, then i would have made my book explicitly clear in my orders, reasonings, explanations and instructions. not have it open to different interpretations- that would make it look like it was written by various different humans over different time periods, then poorly translated by various others and ended up a soggy mess of contradictions, vileness and bigotry that over the last 2000 years have been mainly proved wrong and its moral teachings left behind in the dust by much more enlightened thinking.

but thats just how i wouldve done it

Churches vary hugely. I have attended a few and the one I attended in central London was mainly made up of students and young professionals, worship was mainly 'Christian rock' and sermons were entertaining and applicable to life. It wasn't perfect but maybe something like that is more what you're looking for?

I thought that Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani meant that the book is divinely written.

But 1) I’m not a Catholic, and 2) Many, if not most, Catholics don’t believe everything their Church teaches.

So, you need to use your conscience to ignore some parts of the bible? How to you bend logic so that the book which guides you has other parts which you can't live by in good conscience?

The same I would for anything else in life. I may admire the principles behind Das Kapital, and I may think some of its arguments are valid. It doesn’t follow that I must revere it and adhere to every syllable.

Das kapital was written by a human

Its claimed the bible is the word of god. You can pick and choose which bits of god to agree with surely? I heard he can get a bit wrathful about that kinda stuff and ive heard he can spectacularly overreact

Coconutella

So you are an 'A la carte' Christian then. You want to only pick out the good bits and base your religion on that while you ignore the problematic bits. That's fine but it's not Christianity. It's selective interpretation. Exactly which bits do you believe and which bits don't you believe? Some of the things you are either denying or refusing to answer are classed by all the main Christian sects as fundamental tenets of Christianity. I.e they are non negotiable.

You still haven't stated if you believe in Hell or not, I keep asking because this is a fundamental principle of Christianity. If you don't think that sinners and non-christians go to hell then you are by definition not a Christian, no matter what you call yourself.

So it's not all true?

If you’re using “true” to mean “historical fact”, then no, much of it is myth, some fully myth, some embellished history, just like any other book of the time.

Does that mean it's ok then?

That’s not how I approach it. If the Bible says “God did X”, I interpret that to mean that the author believed that God did X.

I don't think you can compare anything else in life to religion. It allows or even makes people do evil. It teaches them that repugnant actions are acceptable (depending on how you interpret it).

Plenty of evil has been done in the name of atheistic Communism or irreligious nationalism or fascism.

So you are an 'A la carte' Christian then. You want to only pick out the good bits and base your religion on that while you ignore the problematic bits. That's fine but it's not Christianity.

Firstly, every Christian is a la carte to a greater or lesser extent. Secondly, who are you to define Christianity.

You still haven't stated if you believe in Hell or not, I keep asking because this is a fundamental principle of Christianity. If you don't think that sinners and non-christians go to hell then you are by definition not a Christian, no matter what you call yourself.

No I don’t believe in a fire and brimstone hell - a very many Christians don’t. And no, belief in that doctrine does not define a Christian. Christianity at its heart is about the redeeming power of God shown through Jesus.

But implicit in the idea of "redemption" is the idea of hell, or purgatory, or something unpleasant.

What are people being saved from if not hell?

If it's all good in the afterlife then why the need to believe?

Coconutella

Who am I to define Christianity? I'm just telling you what the major Christian denominations define it as. It's not my definition at all.

So you think that the authors of the Bible thought that God did those things, like killing children etc, but you don't think he did?

Which bits did he do then? Let me guess, only the good bits. How convenient.

For the fourth or fifth time on this thread, do you believe sinners and non Christians go to hell? Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days? Do you believe that Jesus walked in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights and was tempted by Satan given physical form? These are all fundamental tenets of Christianity. If you don't believe them literally then you are by definition not a christian. I'm not trying to insult you, that's just a fact.

going to church and/ or reading the bible is the best cure for christianity

its actually quite laughable

Maybe it depends on the vicar? My DDs are Muslim but used to go to a C of E school where church services were fairly common. They used to have an elderly vicar who was very uninspiring and boring and used to ramble on at length, the kids would get restless. Then he retired and they got a much younger South African vicar who was refreshing and IMO absolutely brilliant. He was also very welcoming and inclusive to my DDs as non Christians because he had worked all over the world. He told me that his traditional parishioners disapproved of his more modern and inclusive ways which I thought was sad because I thought he was a real breath of fresh air.

I'm with coconutella I think most people will interpret the bible in different ways. And the churches themselves often move forward or move the goal posts as time goes on, after all everything else in life moves on why not religion? This current pope in particular is doing his best to modernise the Catholic church.

i was told about hell as a child but no one defined what it was - well how could they? Now i choose to believe it is simply not being in God's presence in the afterlife. But no doubt everyone will have their own ideas about hell, or if it even exists.

OP try a different church, its horses for courses when it comes to churches I think.

Religious threads always go the same way. It seems to be a sport these days to goad people of faith and to be so bloody rude to them.

Op I think you need definitely need to look for a different church. See if you can find a church with a choir that can sing like this:

This was my late grandmother's favourite hymn and she used to sing it sooooooo badly. I don't think she would approve of this version.

MissyB1

"No-one has defined Hell."

Apart from the Book of Revelation that describes a 'Lake of Fire' where the damned are tortured for all eternity.

Let me guess, we shouldn't take that bit literally either. At this rate we are fast running out of bits to actually take literally.