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AIBU?

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Original poster

to be annoyed that church is so boring and missing an opportunity to teach something inspiring

418 replies

somethingmustchange · 08/01/2018 08:31

We rarely go except on visits to MIL. Each time the service is read from exactly the same booklet, the sermon teaches nothing and is just boring reciting of the bible, the hymns are dire and sung terribly by everyone including choir. I always leave feeling depressed and cross that the vicar doesn't try to inspire a new generation or give feelings of hope, happiness, community etc. Then the church goers (all 70 plus apart from maybe 2) have coffee and judge other people that are their supposed friends. How are churches supposed to have a future if they carry on like this?

OP posts:
PatriarchyPersonified · 10/01/2018 11:41

Elton, Funday,

I can't tell if you are being deliberately obtuse or not. The points being made by the non-religious here aren't complicated.

If we got rid of the concept of faith schools and made all schools secular, there would still be the same number of state schools, it's just that now any child can attend any of them, instead of some children having more choice than others. We are obviously not talking about just closing faith schools down out of some kind of jelousy or spite. (Interestingly the RC school in my town has only recently come of special measures so make of that want you will.)

The fact that people have to lie about their religion to get their children a decent education in some places is an appalling state of affairs and just emphasises the point that myself and others are making.

Get faith systems out of schools. If churches want to put money towards supporting education in remote or deprived areas as a display of Christian charity then of course schools could welcome that, but on the understanding that they had no say in the curriculum or tone of the school. Interestingly I can't find a single example of a religious organisation funding a school without also wanting to have input on the curriculum. Almost as if charitable support isn't their real motive.

CardinalSin · 10/01/2018 11:41

Funny how the Christians are OK with lying, but the atheists seem to have moral objections to it...

Eltonjohnssyrup · 10/01/2018 11:43

Funny how the Christians are OK with lying, but the atheists seem to have moral objections to it..

How about all the 'judge not lest ye be judged' stuff? That's actually in the gospel so it's y'know. Gospel.

FundayMorning · 10/01/2018 11:45

Funny how the Christians are OK with lying, but the atheists seem to have moral objections to it...

One poster said that.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 10/01/2018 11:49

No way should any faith school be funded by public monies. End of. And state schools should be entirely secular, teaching about religions and faiths as culture and belief, not fact. Also end of.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 10/01/2018 11:53

If we got rid of the concept of faith schools and made all schools secular, there would still be the same number of state schools, it's just that now any child can attend any of them, instead of some children having more choice.

Not true. They wouldn't be able to attend any of them, they would be able to attend the ones their parents were wealthy enough to buy housing near. It would just mean all children are discriminated against on the basis of wealth rather than a few having a chance to escape that.

The fact that people have to lie about their religion to get their children a decent education in some places is an appalling state of affairs

But the fact that children's education depends on how much money their parents have to buy a house doesn't?

That issue affects far more children than faith schools does. So if you're genuinely concerned about children having the best choice of schools get on your hobby horse about that.

It's not about 'choice' for you, it's about wanting to make those schools as shit as all the rest of them and taking away one of the only advantages many children have because you don't like an ideology and because you can't deal with a diversity of options just because some of them may not be for you.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 10/01/2018 11:56

What was it someone said earlier? 'It's fine so long as you don't impose it on me and mine'. Yet you want to impose on how other people educate their children? Bit bloody hypocritical.

CardinalSin · 10/01/2018 11:59

"How about all the 'judge not lest ye be judged' stuff?"

As an atheist I don't feel remotely compelled to follow your odious book...

CardinalSin · 10/01/2018 12:00

Elton, your attempts at sophistry are probably against your book as well.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 10/01/2018 12:07

Funny how the Christians are OK with lying, but the atheists seem to have moral objections to it..

Besides, even if we see someone doing something which is a sin we're supposed to forgive them.

Funny how it turns out the atheists on this thread are the judgy unforgiving ones determined to impose their values on others isn't it?

PatriarchyPersonified · 10/01/2018 12:09

Elton

Believe it or not it's possible to care about more than one issue at once. You are correct that school catchment postcode lotteries are shit, but your solution (faith schools) seems frankly bizarre. You want to compensate for one injustice with another, so you can end up with a situation where a non religious child who also lives in a poor catchment area is effectively disadvantaged twice? Unless their parents are happy to lie about their religion?

You seem to have exposed your true colours in the last few posts, you believe non faith schools are shit and want to maintain your child's privileged position. Nice. Oviously faith schools are good because the childrens families show they care more by getting off their arse on a Sunday. Hmmmm. As I said, my local RC has been on special measures.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When you have had a position of privilidge for a long time, being made to be on the same level as everybody else can feel like discrimination. It isn't.

Vitalogy · 10/01/2018 12:14

'It's fine so long as you don't impose it on me and mine'. Yet you want to impose on how other people educate their children? I don't think anyone has said that have they, just be able to have an even choice of faith and non faith schools.

I not an atheist btw.

Vitalogy · 10/01/2018 12:19

Besides, even if we see someone doing something which is a sin we're supposed to forgive them. Are you sure you aren't using that as a sort of get out clause for justifying doing stuff that is morally wrong.

CardinalSin · 10/01/2018 12:27

Actually Patriarchy, I don't think that Elvis has even come to that as a considered opinion, merely made it up on the spur of the moment in order to try and justify her odiously unegalitarian and un-justifiable comments.

And Vitalogy, I don't see why there should be any state funded faith schools. If your faith is important to you, nobody is stopping you from teaching it to your children, nor from taking them to those ready made edifices to practice and worship. Why you should expect the average tax-payer to fund it for you is bizarre. Privileged even...

Eltonjohnssyrup · 10/01/2018 12:29

I don't think anyone has said that have they, just be able to have an even choice of faith and non faith schools.

No, they have said that they want to get rid of faith schools altogether. Repeatedly.

CardinalSin · 10/01/2018 12:36

And replace them with schools...

Eltonjohnssyrup · 10/01/2018 12:37

odiously unegalitarian and un-justifiable

Inegalitarian? Promoting one belief systems right to entirely dominate an education system despite the wishes of others seems pretty unequal to me.

There are Jewish, Islamic, Catholic, C of E, Methodist and Hindu schools in the U.K. But you want all those parents to be denied that choice? In the name of 'equality'? Okay.

So what you're saying is not that other systems can exist in equality with your own, but that your own system must have primacy? Which is what you were criticising Christians for?

FundayMorning · 10/01/2018 12:40

Why you should expect the average tax-payer to fund it for you is bizarre. Privileged even

Ridiculous comment. All manner of things are tax-payer funded that I don't or can't access.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 10/01/2018 12:40

And replace them with schools...

Secular schools. Funny how people who were so keen earlier in the thread to promote secularism and atheism as their own belief systems equally worthy of respect to religion suddenly decide that it isn't a belief system at all when it suits their own purposes...

FundayMorning · 10/01/2018 12:41

Nice. Oviously faith schools are good because the childrens families show they care more by getting off their arse on a Sunday. Hmmmm. As I said, my local RC has been on special measures.

I bet this delights you doesn't it? You sound quite nasty and embittered.

CardinalSin · 10/01/2018 12:46

Atheism is as much a belief system as not playing golf is a sport. And nobody is suggesting "Atheist schools", merely schools where no religion is taught as fact. I'm sure all the Christians would be equally happy if all schools were obliged to lead compulsory worship of Allah instead of Yahweh...

There are places outside of academia where you are actively encouraged to practice your faith (churches, synagogues, mosques etc.), so why should a place of learning have to peddle your personal brand of fairy story? Are you actually so lazy about your faith that you can't be arsed to pass it on yourself and expect the government to do it for you?

sinceyouask · 10/01/2018 12:52

If all schools were secular, that wouldn't mean children were being denied the right to practise their (or, to be accurate, their parent's) religion. It wouldn't stop them following a diet, dress code, moral code, behavioural code in accordance with their religion. It would not prevent their parents from continuing to take their children to religious services. It would not in any way infringe on the rights of religious parents to bring their children up in line with the teachings of their religion.

It would mean that people could not be denied a place at a school on the basis that they are not practising a religion. It would mean that people were no longer encouraged to pretend a belief they do not have, to to engage in activities entirely meaningless to them in order to prove that not existent belief, in order for their child to attend a school.

Funny how people who were so keen earlier in the thread to promote secularism and atheism as their own belief systems equally worthy of respect to religion suddenly decide that it isn't a belief system at all when it suits their own purposes
Well, no, atheism and secularism are belief systems in the same way religions are- but only someone very daft indeed would think something has to be a "belief system" to be worthy of respect.

sinceyouask · 10/01/2018 12:53

Well, no, atheism and secularism are NOT belief systems in the same way religions are

speakout · 10/01/2018 12:56

Atheism is not a belief system.

CardinalSin · 10/01/2018 12:59

Belief systems as and of themselves are not necessarily worthy of respect. Racism is a belief system, as is sexism. Are you suggesting we should respect those?

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