to be annoyed that church is so boring and missing an opportunity to teach something inspiring

[somethingmustchange]

We rarely go except on visits to MIL. Each time the service is read from exactly the same booklet, the sermon teaches nothing and is just boring reciting of the bible, the hymns are dire and sung terribly by everyone including choir. I always leave feeling depressed and cross that the vicar doesn't try to inspire a new generation or give feelings of hope, happiness, community etc. Then the church goers (all 70 plus apart from maybe 2) have coffee and judge other people that are their supposed friends. How are churches supposed to have a future if they carry on like this?

Didn't God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son?

Yes but stopped him from doing it before it happened.

Look, I'm not arguing about every interpretation of Christianity or which is right or wrong. But our legal and moral systems have their roots in the Abrahamic religions and it's impossible to argue with that. I don't think anybody with any serious historical knowledge would argue with that.

I'm sorry I don't follow with that Aztec, Celt thing?

Some people are taking for granted on this thread that all belief systems share the same basic values as our own. Such as valuing other people and treating them well. This isn't the case. There have been other belief systems where people were only the value they could be to your God on your behalf. So you would kill or enslave them or dispose of them or exchange things with them and it was acceptable to do whatever your physical power could force other people to do because you getting power and acquiring things showed that your God was better than theirs and loved you most.

There is an assumption that our value system of not doing harm to others has always been universal. It's not. It originated in and spread (almost entirely) with the Abrahamic religions (although some other religions shared elements).

Morality is a subjective, evolved social construct that is innate within us due to our culture and an element of biology.

Er, yes, exactly my point. Most of the world has a value system based on the society and culture it developed in, And for most of the world those are societies and cultures which have their roots in Abrahamic religions. You can't say something results from 'society and culture' whilst ignoring that those societies themselves and their values evolved from those religions. Basically what you're doing is selectively cutting off concepts from historically provable origins.

Patriarchy, are you just going to keep arguing until we all agree with you?

Probably. There's none so bigoted as a born-again atheist.

Our Catholic Church, attaches to the School is awful. Awful services, Priest who doesn't engage, un-family-friendly.
Went to christingle, as per usual in other church this year. Same again, so nice, fabulous father. So good. Such a shame.

Reading the same old boring stories from the same old dusty book has worked very well for the church over the past 2,000 years. What this thread is really about is that people have become more enlightened and are no longer buying the stories.

So what can the few believers left do about that? Well it seems one solution touted here is to get everyone clapping loudly so that what is actually said is drowned into the background. This takes the focus away from how irrelevant the bible has become and makes the message, 'come along and clap, its good exercise makes you happy'.

Obviously MN couldn't keep a thread like this up if it was about Islam, the threat of another Charlie Hebdo incident is just a reality.

So what can the few believers left do about that?

There are 2.2 billion Christians, 1.3 million Buddhists, 3 million people of other religions compared to 1.1 billion atheists.

Elton

Sorry, those two millions in the middle should be billions.

Water is a molecule, not an atom.😂

And buddhists should read Muslims. But apart from it's right.

Eltonjohnssyrup

our legal and moral systems have their roots in the Abrahamic religions

No more than they have their roots in the Hammurabic Code, Danelaw, Justinian Law and Roman and Greek legal concepts. Its actually the other way round. The roots of the Abrahamic religions can be traced back to Babylonia and ancient Egypt. All of the fundamental principles of modern morality can be found in at least one form or another all over the world throughout history, almost as if humans don't require divine revelation in order to figure them out. Christians have collated them together after the fact and then co-opted them, which isn't the same thing at all.

I'll ask again, if your moral code, or indeed our legal and moral systems come from any of the mainstream holy books, how do we pick and choose which parts to follow and which to ignore?

Some people are taking for granted on this thread that all belief systems share the same basic values as our own. Such as valuing other people and treating them well.

The Bible, the Torah and the Quran advocate slavery. Thou shall not kill is actually a modern translation of thou shalt not murder. Murder was defined as unlawful killing. It was acceptable to kill people under biblical law in circumstances that we would find 'problematic' to say the least. Surely you can't be claiming that we get our fundamental concepts of the value of human life from any of the Abrahamic religions?

Speak out so you continue only being able to try and argue by being derogatory, maybe you could try adopting some Christian values of living thy neighbour and maybe look into anger management classes too. Why are you so angry? What has religion ever do to you, do you blame it for causing friction between you and your family or something? I’m sorry you have such hatred in your heart I really am.

All philosophical, religious and legal systems have their basis in some sort of other system. Pointing out that our legal, ethical and moral systems have their roots in Abrahamic religions doesn't negate or deny those connections.

But denying that the vast majority of the world's (and in particular the West's) systems of the same haven't developed over 1900 years of influence from Christianity and have their roots in those belief systems is just stupid. Ditto for Islam & Judaism.

are you saying everybody was murdering, raping and stealing all the time until 2000 years ago

'Yes. Go and look up some ancient history. Human sacrifice etc, etc. Vikings raping and pillaging. Egyptians putting to death servants to send them to the afterlife with their masters.'

Umm...really?! www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/morality_evolved_first_long_before_religion/

Viley, that is an unreliable biased source which misrepresents the findings of more reliable studies to back up it's (shaky) premise. E.g. Using a study on modern religion to back up a point about the ancient world. It's not a serious or reliable source.

It's a militant atheist site. It's like sending someone to a L.I.F.E. website for a balanced view on abortion.

For example that bit claiming that we know what the moral systems of Ethiopians 150,000 years ago were? Absolute bullshit. Not least because earliest examples of the writing which could tell us that are only 5,500 years old.

Oh dear, a theist complaining of someone using a "biased" source!

Irony overload...

Oh dear, a theist complaining of someone using a "biased" source!

I'm talking in terms of the history of our moral/ethical/legal systems. That very much has a studiable basis in verifiable sources.

If I was telling you that my faith was indisputably true and that everybody should believe it because it was provable you might have a point. But I've not done that and I have no desire to make anybody share my beliefs.

It’s such a shame that people cannot actually see the value of religion, the hope it brings to billions of people. If you don’t like it don’t join in simple. People have the right to withdraw children from any sort of religious worship. What gets me is the downright nasty and derogatory comments it appears ok to make about Christianity yet these same people probably profess themselves to be liberal and kind people. If you don’t like churches don’t walk in one, withdraw children from acts of worship or better still explain to them that people believe different things and this is part of that belief. You don’t believe it but it’s up to the child to make their own mind up. We’re Christian but do I kick off if the school talks about Hinduism no I don’t. Interestingly we had the ability to go to a Church of England school take away by the intervention of the humanist society when some angry parents who didn’t want their posh school infiltrated by people who hadn’t paid a house premium tried to use humanism as a way to stop the school being a feeder. So from my perspective it’s a good job state schools offer some religious teaching.

Some churches are boring. You are right about that OP. The truth is that the services can tend to be very routinised and the quality of the music very uninspiring. It is a good place to find companionship if you are low or lonely. And it is very useful if something terrible has happened and you just need to anchor yourself.

Like local political parties, a church is one institution that will not turn you away. However the church can also be like a smothering octopus if you ever start giving regular time eg Sunday school teaching, organ playing etc. Not good if you are a person who finds it hard to say no to people.

Some churches are boring. You are right about that OP. The truth is that the services can tend to be very routinised and the quality of the music very uninspiring. It is a good place to find companionship if you are low or lonely. And it is very useful if something terrible has happened and you just need to anchor yourself.

Like local political parties, a church is one institution that will not turn you away. However the church can also be like a smothering octopus if you ever start giving regular time eg Sunday school teaching, organ playing etc. Not good if you are a person who finds it hard to say no to people.

Iwanttobe8stoneagain there speak the voice of christian privilege.

"What gets me is the downright nasty and derogatory comments it appears ok to make about Christianity yet these same people probably profess themselves to be liberal and kind people"

I agree. Why is it OK to take a pop at Christianity and not at Islam/Buddhism/Judaism/paganism/Hinduism/Sikhism/other religionism? I am agnostic and don't deride believers or atheists.

speakout why is this the voice of Christian privilege?

LonirniceJaponica

Because this thread has predominantly been about Christianity. Start a thread about Islam and I'll criticise on there as well.

What's the betting it would get taken down?