to be annoyed that church is so boring and missing an opportunity to teach something inspiring

[somethingmustchange]

We rarely go except on visits to MIL. Each time the service is read from exactly the same booklet, the sermon teaches nothing and is just boring reciting of the bible, the hymns are dire and sung terribly by everyone including choir. I always leave feeling depressed and cross that the vicar doesn't try to inspire a new generation or give feelings of hope, happiness, community etc. Then the church goers (all 70 plus apart from maybe 2) have coffee and judge other people that are their supposed friends. How are churches supposed to have a future if they carry on like this?

600 people attending church in a town of 15000 is 4% of the population

The 2% figure to which you refer is the percentage of the population who attend a CofE church on a particular Sunday. Many people who frequent churches wouldn’t do it every week... At my church, on an average Sunday about 60% of total regular attendees are there. The 2% doesn’t count Catholics, Baptists, Methodist, Pentecostals etc. who in aggregate are larger than the CofE.... I read the figure in total is more like 5%.... still very small, but not as low as often reported.

However, apart from seeking to belittle and marginalise those posting on this thread who do, I’m not sure why you feel the need to emphasise this

Its not trying to marginalise anyone, they are marginalised by the fact that they are a very small minority of the country. And it is important to continually point that out because they are a very small minority that hold a legal religious privilege that impacts and discriminates against the majority of people that dont believe in the same doctrine.

only 16% actually believe in the teachings of christ

?? I accept that most people aren’t not Christians, and that the 59% is inflated by those who cultural Christians without any real belief, but I struggle to believe that 16% actually believe in the teachings of christ, as a very many atheists and agnostics will believe the teachings of Christ are ok..... Do you mean the ‘teachings of the Church’ which, if that was deemed to include homosexuality and contraception (RC) a great many self-professed Christians would disagree!

Anyway, we can quote numbers ad infinitum. The trends are clear..... church attendance has fallen over the decades and those calling themselves Christian has similarly dropped significantly. No one can deny that.... However, I did read that church attendance is now on the up in London!... though this is very likely in part due to the diverse and increasing population there, with CofE building churches for the first time since the 50s!.... but then London is a bit different to the rest of the country.

www.adherents.com just collates self published census data, it conducts no research itself

Er, that is not true. Go back and read how they reach their figures again. They personally don't go out and ask people, but they don't just use census data, they use multiple sources and cross check them to find accurate figures and also track over time including reported attendance figures, membership numbers and lots and lots of other sources.

So that's nonsense.

A few days after the 2011 UK census where 59% of people answered, Christian, to the question 'what religion are you?' an Religious and Social Attitudes of UK Christians in 2011 by Ipsos MORI gave the following results:

Around one in six (16%) of the 59% of self declaring Christians said they had ‘accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour' which is 9% of the UK population.

and less than one in ten (7%) of the 59% of self declaring Christians said 'I believe in the teachings of Jesus', which is 4% of the UK population. Actually a lot less than I had remembered.

Eltonjohnssyrup So you agree that all Preston Hunter does is collect self declared data, which bears no resemblance to what people believe. As I have already demonstrated.

That is a deliberates obtuse question from a very small sample. The census data and personal declaration is better. I am a Christian and I would answer no to that as would many others.

Julie

You’re undermining your argument by trying to stretch your position too far, and being disingenuous in your portrayal of the survey from which you quote. The question provided a series of statements with respondents asked to select the one that Best described their Christianity. So whereas 7% chose the “I believe in the teachings of Jesus” as their statement of choice, it does not follow that only 7% self-declaring Christians believe that.... it would be very strange indeed if that were the case.

coconuttella, if a Christian wont say they "believe in the teachings of Jesus", then are they really a Christian?

If that is the case then surly the UK is 100% Christian!

Julie, I've just looked that survey up. You're hugely misrepresenting what it said. The question that was asked was 'Why are you a Christian' and they were given a number of options to choose from including being baptised or Christened. Not choosing that option for being a Christian didn't mean they disbelieved it. And 28% of people gave that answer, not 7%.

'Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour' was not a straight question. People were asked what their reasons were for being a Christian and were given a range of options. Not choosing that one didn't mean they didn't believe it.

You're presenting them as closed questions with yes/no answers which is deliberately deceptive. It was carried out for the Richard Dawkins foundation so is neither unbiased nor reliable and was constructed mainly from leading questions designed to rebut the census data rather than for genuine non-biased enquiry.

And besides, if someone says they are a Christian, whatever that means to them, who are you to tell them they're not?

Personally I was referring to the first one 'accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour' as an awful lot of Christians would say they have doubts and couldn't say they fully accepted it. I find the sort of Christian who is blindly faithful like that and doesn't think about it a bit full on. But that just shows how ambiguous those questions are.

Sorry, the first paragraph above refers to the statement 'I believe in the teachings of Jesus'.

It was carried out for the Richard Dawkins foundation

No it was carried out by Ipsos MORI. An independent survey company.

People were asked what their reasons were for being a Christian

Of course they were, that was the whole point of unpacking their beliefs. And if not believing in Christ is a good reason for being Christian then we are all Christian.

The point being that you can use whatever label you want but you cant say it means many people in the UK (or around the world) actually believe in a specific god, when self evidently they dont.

No it was carried out by Ipsos MORI. An independent survey company.

It was carried out by IPSOS Mori for the Richard Dawkins foundation as per their own link below. IPSOS Mori are only as 'independent' as their customers wish them to be. They carry out surveys in the way their customer wants and give them the results. If the customer wants leading questions asked that's what they ask. They ask people the questions, they don't formulate them. They are only independent in the sense they do not have their own bias, not in the sense that they will refuse to carry out surveys with a bias if that is what their customer requests.

www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/religious-and-social-attitudes-uk-christians-2011

Of course they were, that was the whole point of unpacking their beliefs. And if not believing in Christ is a good reason for being Christian then we are all Christian.

You presented these questions as yes/no answer. 'Do you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour', 'Do you believe in the teachings of Christ. That was deceptive.

As you can see from the above link, you presented those questions as yes/no answers and said that the people who hadn't answered those questions as 'Yes' must believe the opposite 'No'. In fact it was a much more open question which asked people to choose reasons and choice of those reasons did not necessarily mean that they did not agree with the statement. Someone may believe in both those things but identify the reason they are a Christian as because they've been baptised. You're completely misrepresenting those results.

The point being that you can use whatever label you want but you cant say it means many people in the UK (or around the world) actually believe in a specific god, when self evidently they dont.

Do you understand what self-evidently means? You're saying that the religious beliefs of several billion people in thousands of cultures are 'self-evident' to you. Do you realise how astoundingly ignorant that sounds? Even though there are still huge numbers of practising religious people in the world and people who claim a particular religion or say they believe in one God (or God's) or another.

It's shockingly small minded. You seem to have the attitude that in the infinitesimally small number of people around you, you don't think (because you can't know for sure) many of them believe in a God or religion therefore you think that must apply to the whole world?

You do realise the mainly secular nature of Western Europe is one tiny part of the world? Most of the rest of the world, even other parts of Europe, are much, much more religiously active and it's part of people's daily lives. Not to mention India and the rest of Asia and Africa where most people are deeply religious. And the very active (much more so than Europe) Christian tradition in South America.

Really Julie, you're making yourself look incredibly silly now. I suggest you get out there and travel a bit and see how people live their lives in other parts of the world.

Can you present any sort of reliable evidence that hardly anybody believes in God any more Julie? Aside from the fact you think it is 'self-evident' when clearly it's not.

In fact Julie, even in that survey you're so keen on quoting, 94% of people believed in some form of God.

Would you like to hoist your own petard or shall I help you?

Eltonjohnsyrup

People are free to call themselves anything they like, but you can't get away from the fact that if someone is not prepared to say they believe Jesus Christ was the son of god who died for our sins and then rose again, then they are by definition not a Christian.

Thankfully religiousness is trending downwards in this country and in Europe, but I think Coconutella makes an interesting point. Church attendance is up in London and who can blame the CofE for jumping on that bandwagon? In my opinion they need to be very careful though. Embracing unquestioningly Christian immigrants from developing countries (and in particular sub-saharan Africa) is a dangerous game. Churches in a lot of these countries have a tendency towards extreme biblical literalism (man shall not lie with another man etc) and the CofE could find themselves winning the battle (greater church attendance in the short term), but losing the war (further alienating themselves from the general population).

Julie

You have a point that only a minority of the U.K. population are actively participating Christians, but you’re not doing your argument any favours by overplaying your hand by grossly misrepresenting this survey.

If I asked you to name your favourite dessert out of a list, it doesn’t follow that you only like the dessert you pick and dislike the rest of those desserts, but that’s the flawed logic you’re applying here to this survey!

To be clear, the survey asked which of a range of statements best describes their Christianity. 16% picked “following the teachings of Christ” as opposed to others who picked answers such as “accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour”, or “being Baptised” etc. The answers are not mutually exclusive as is surely obvious!

but you can't get away from the fact that if someone is not prepared to say they believe Jesus Christ was the son of god who died for our sins and then rose again, then they are by definition not a Christian.

Yes, but nobody asked them that question did they?

Speak out so you continue only being able to try and argue by being derogatory, maybe you could try adopting some Christian values of living thy neighbour and maybe look into anger management classes too. Why are you so angry? What has religion ever do to you, do you blame it for causing friction between you and your family or something? I’m sorry you have such hatred in your heart I really am.

The Troubles? It's a problem when religion is used to entrench extremely unfair systems of wealth and power - usually based on race and class - like it still is.

you could try adopting some Christian values

I don't see these values as being particularly christian- christianity does not have ownership of altruism.

And the values you speak of? The ones demonstrated in the bible? Homophobia? Ritual murder? Misogyny?

No thanks.

And I have no anger to deal with thanks. I have my views, but I lead a very peaceful life.

Go feel sorry for someone who needs it.

Eltonjohnssyrup

Yes, but nobody asked them that question did they?

Actually yes. Q24 and 25. What best describes peoples beliefs about Jesus and his Resurrection.

Less than half of the respondents would agree that Jesus is the son of God, or that he was raised from the dead. A small proportion (of self declared Christians!) said they didn't believe Jesus even existed, and nearly 20% didn't believe in the Resurrection at all.

We can go down this rabbit hole all day, the point remains that a lot of people call themselves 'Christians' for no other reason than their parents had them baptised, or they went to a CofE school and can still remember the words to the Lords Prayer.

Its certainly no excuse for the Church to have any involvement in the running of this country and its institutions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating the abolishment of religion. I am a gradualist, not an extremist. I would like to see religion removed from all positions of privilege only. No more Bishops in the Lords, no more faith schools of any denomination (regardless of whether they are state or privately funded), no automatic inclusion of the CofE into state affairs. Religion should be taught in schools, but children should be taught how to think about religion, not what to think.

I accept that we will never get rid of religion completely, it's ultimately driven by the same mental processes that makes people believe in ghosts and other superstitions. (Childish wishful thinking that there is something out there to give people a sense of purpose and free them from having to find one for themselves).

Just don't impose that religion on me or mine in any way, directly or indirectly and we can get along absolutely fine.

patriachy, sorry, I hadn't read that part of the survey.

71% believe in some sort of resurrection, 7% don't know, 3% preferred not to say. Only 18% said they did not believe in the resurrection.

44% said JC was the son of God and 32% a role model with a similar proportion (17% saying that they thought he was just a man or didn't exist.

The thing is, some Christians rationalise about the virgin birth and resurrection. They think that Jesus was probably the son of a man but symbolically the son of God. They think he probably didn't die on the cross and revived afterwards. But they still believe they are Christians even though they can perhaps interpret things a bit differently from someone in 80 AD did.

We've had a reformation. People think for themselves and form their own opinions. 500 years ago you would probably have been saying 'well if you can't agree that transubstantition happens and you are drinking the blood of Christ you're not a Christian'. But things change. Beliefs develop.

Even people who say that they don't believe in any of these things are not insignificant if they see their identity as culturally Christian. I know many people who are complete atheists who however identify with the central teachings of Christianity and see it as a good guide to living life even if they reject the supernatural elements (my Dad does that, not that it's relevant).

Other than that I agree with you on some of it, I don't think religion should give positions of political power and I would like to see a separation of Church and state because I believe religion is a matter for individuals and like you don't believe that it should be imposed on anybody or have power over those who don't share those beliefs. I like democracy to run the country I live in, not theocracy.

I seperate with you on the idea of schools though, because that is a matter of personal choice and I'm not keen on the idea of giving people the option to choose to educate their child in a particular way.

Just don't impose that religion on me or mine in any way, directly or indirectly and we can get along absolutely fine.

I won't. Absolutely not. That is against everything I believe in. TBH if you knew me you probably wouldn't even know I was a Christian unless you asked directly!

I'm not keen on the idea of giving people the option to choose to educate their child in a particular way. Is this a typo?

Yes Vitalogy. I meant the opposite. Thanks for pointing out.