Have I been mean to this child?

[SureJan]

My baby DS is 6mo. My cousin came round to visit with her 4yo DD.
Baby has some toys, obviously nothing really for a 4yo to play with but I didn't mind at all her playing with the baby toys.
4yo started getting a little bit naughty (probably bored) & was snatching toys off the baby. Cousin, her mum, didn't say anything to her about it. Eventually I gently told her not to snatch, he's only a baby etc. Cousin not phased, didn't say a word to her. She didn't stop doing it so I started wrapping up the play date, picked up baby & said he was due a bottle, that sort of thing, to signal it was time they went home.
4yo started making a fuss when cousin said it was time to go & she was flustered. 4yo had baby's rattle in her hand & looked like she wasn't going to put it back. I nicely asked are you going to put the rattle back? They both ignored me. Cousin started saying bye, thanks for having us, 4yo still had hold of rattle. I said (nicely again) I'll take that rattle off you now, & she started kicking off really bad, screaming, crying etc. Cousin said nothing to me, just looked at her DD & looked blankly at me. I tried to tell 4yo it was baby's & baby needs it so it has to stay here - more screaming & crying, still no input from cousin. Then cousin says to 4yo, maybe SureJan will let you borrow it until we come again? I said sorry, no. Cousin rolled her eyes at me & said 'really?' in a very pissed off tone, & I stuck to my guns & said yes really, it's not hers to take!
Cousin cajoled & begged 4yo for a good minute or 2 to hand it over, with her screaming full pelt in her face, & eventually cousin snatched it off her, threw it onto the floor & dragged her out of the house saying 'thanks for fucking nothing' to me!
WIBU? Part of me feels bad because it was just a rattle & baby probably wouldn't have missed it, maybe I was being a bit mean? I'm sure cousin thinks I was just being awkward & making her suffer through an embarrassing tantrum that I could have easily stopped by letting her take the bloody thing.
But part of me thinks no, it's not my fault she won't discipline her DD & why should I just give her stuff to take home so that she gets an easier time? It was a rattle & she's 4yo so not age appropriate for her, I feel she was just pushing boundaries & didn't really want it.
I know it isn't my place to tell cousin how to discipline but I do feel she should have stepped in way before the rattle incident by telling her DD to stop snatching, play nicely, be gentle with baby etc. It annoyed me that she didn't!
Am I mean/unreasonable? I have no doubt that there will come a time when baby is older & tantrumming in similar fashion & I'll be able to empathise more, but I don't think in that situation I'd let him take the toy to keep him quiet.

*My dc is not even 3 and would not do that but that's because I've lived through the tantrums where she wants to keep something and I've not let her

Please look up some threenager threads on here. Pleeeeaaaaase! I dare you. 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

Then some “fearsome fours” threads.

Not even three. Haaahahahaaaheeee!*

Fair enough, I've not had the experience of a 3-4 year old yet. But I have had to prise toys out of my screaming dc's fist as we leave a toddler group or friend's house because they want to take it away, exactly as the OP described with her cousin's daughter. My dc has now accepted the difference between toys that are theirs in their home and toys they can use elsewhere but can't keep so it's not a problem any more.

Maybe I'll see a regression in that learning as they get older but if I do then I'm not giving into the tantrums any more than I did when younger. It's an important life lesson.

givemesteel

It’s not regression really. The toddler tantrum stage is progression and the start of your dc separating from you as an individual and seeing what they control in the world. Very few toddlers miss the tantrum stage. Some children, even those, who are given good boundaries do continue to tantrum as they get a little older than the 2/3 yo mark. But at 2, your dc has barely started tantruming.

YANBU. I’m actually really surprised that there are a few people saying that you are BU. I’d expect my two year old to know that someone else’s toy belongs at their house, no way in hell would I be expecting to just borrow it until I saw them again to avoid her getting upset. If I took it off her and she tantrummed, we’ll that’s not fun but setting boundaries is parenting and she’s learnt that we don’t steal other people’s property. What does the woman do when she goes into a shop and her DD takes a shine to a soft toy - ask if she can borrow it until next week?!

Maybe I'll see a regression in that learning as they get older but if I do then I'm not giving into the tantrums any more than I did when younger. It's an important life lesson

@givemesteel You are on the right track. My kids are now young adults, and did have occasional tantrums when they were wee. I remember carrying one of them out of a playdate screaming once. But I didn't give into tantrums, so they stopped.

You sound like the same sort as me. Children quickly learn that when they scream and yell, if the answer remains NO, that screaming and yelling don't work. They might test it out every now and again just to check, but they don't make it a habit. Because it never works.

Some parents don't realize this. They think their job is to make their child happy. So their child screams and yells all the time. For years. And some how, they think they are "nice" parents, not seeing how much they've actually created the screaming and crying.

You are not being unreasonable... your cousin should have said no before that incident

Yes, it is a vicious circle, HipNewName.

YADNBU. For what it's worth I'd let your DM know what's happened in case DA brings it up with her. I think I was most floored by your cousin swearing at you and throwing your child's toy on the floor. What a terrible example she's setting for her child, no wonder there are issues.

Perhaps a 2 year old, known for tantrums, I'll usually say let them borrow it and bring it back. A four year old though?? No way This child will either be at school or starting school soon. Your cousin obviously likes the easy way out!

I would have let this one go and think about how to deal with it next time.

Definitely NBU.

And I say this as someone who really doesn't like other people disciplining my DD (4) . To be fair, we've had some corkers like my Mum telling DD off for not saying thank you to Alexa for switching on the lights DD is really good about always saying please and thank you to humans, so not something that needed to be pushed...

BUT, if something affects you or a child who can't stick up for themselves, then it is absolutely reasonable for you to set boundaries around it. Your cousin's child wanting to take your baby's toy home falls into that category. So does protecting your possessions and home from damage.

Might be worth sending your cousin a message so that there's no awkwardness. Something like:
'Thanks for coming over to see us yesterday. It was lovely to see you and DD, and catch up. Hope DD was OK once you got home. It was a shame to end the visit on that note, but I didn't want to set the precedent, especially since I hope the children will see more of each other as they get older. Love, OP'

Yes, cousin not good. YANBU. I wonder if she’s having a nightmare time of it - obviously people on here will say self inflicted - if she’s got a demanding 4yo perhaps on that day she’d just had enough and couldn’t engage her brain to manage it all.

A minor thing that might help you in future by the way: you say you asked her if she was going to leave the rattle. Never ask a question when actually you are giving an instruction. It makes it harder for them because they think they have a choice.

Better to say 'This belongs to the baby. We need to put it down here now'. And then get even more direct if she doesn't. 'Give me the rattle now. It needs to stay here.' Persist and repeat.

YANBU

Your cousin needs to start disciplining her child, don't invite them over again.

God some of these responses, calling the kid a brat etc.

Op. Try to see it through your cousins eyes, there are two perspectives to every event.

She clearly knew her kid was going to throw a tantrum,.
She thought you had her back in trying to avoid that and didn't care about the rattle that much that she couldn't borrow it.
The kid would have been bored of it fairly immediately and she'd have returned it later.
It wasn't something expensive and it's ludicrous to suggest your cousin would want your iPad or phone.
As parents no we aren't always perfect and I've seen plenty give in to avoid a tantrum.
No one disputes she should have told her child to hand the rattle back, and no it's not great parenting, but to many it's understandable parenting when faced with a full on strop and an insignificant item. Sometimes yes you do whatever to keep the peace.

I strongly suspect the relationship is quite damaged now. She will not think you've been mean to her daughter. She'll think you've been mean to her. Her comments of "really" and "thanks for nothing" validate her view of events. She was trying to avoid a tantrum and thought you'd help her as the rattle wasn't w big enough deal. Instead you forced it and stood and watched,

So no it's not good for a parent to give in to avoid a tantrum, it is understandable sometimes and any parent whose dealt with a tantrum and says otherwise is a complete and utter liar.

I agree that YANBU. So many entitled young people because their parents were too lazy to discipline and it was easier to give in. You were doing that child a favour by teaching them that you cannot have everything you want just because you feel like it.

Bluntness100, that may have been true if the cousin had tried to connect with her DD at any time during the visit but she didn’t, she allowed her free rein and didn’t discipline in any shape or form for any of the visit. Her child is 4, she’ll have had lots of practice at deflect, distract etc at the appropriate time of putting shoes on. I used to get my DS to put his shoes on and while said toy was let go whisk it away, return to its owner and remind my child it wasn’t his! It’s not that difficult to do, you don’t need anyone to have your back. Unfortunately the cousin doesn’t appear to like the sometimes harder parts of parenting. If nothing else maybe now she’ll bring things for her child to play with.

Reading some of the responses on here makes it all crystal clear why some children become such insufferable, rude, spoilt brats with poor social skills and few friends. A few kids I've known are springing to mind here and knowing their parents loosely I can just imagine they were the no backbone types like the OP's cousin.

Absolutely. Cousin should have intervened when her DD first started playing up.

YANBU - a 4 year old is old enough to understand (or begin to learn) that you don't take other people's things.

And the cousin swore at you? I think she has the problem, not you.

YANBU and I say that as a mother of a child who has had some epic meltdowns (autism) and tantrums (sheer bloody mindedness). I’m often guilty of doing things for a quiet life but no I wouldn’t let them take another child’s toy just to make them shut up.

You weren’t mean you weren’t rude and guaranteed your child will one day do something similar!

I've had tantrums to deal with like that with my 2 , and sadly well beyond the age of 4, because of attachment issues. I've prised things from their hands before and returned them, apologised on their behalf, and made a swift exit, in embarrassment.

Your cousin threw a tantrum herself instead. Her DD won't be learning how to behave better with that behaviour from her mum.

Minicooperlover, sure. As said though there are two view points always to the same scenario. I don't believe the cousin was right, but in some contexts it's understandable. I'm also not sure the op was totallly right either to be honest.

It has to be said once you get into negatively judging each other's parenting and refuse to support each other because uou believe the parenting is bad, the relationship is over.

The cousin, there is no doubt, will not be sitting thinking the op is right and she's a shit parent, she will be sitting thinking "what a total bitch, it was a rattle she didn't care about, she'd have got it back, who demands it back and makes a kid cry, who does that" .

You did exactly right. The kid needs to learn about not taking things that aren’t theirs before school starts!

Why on earth should someone support shitty parenting just to placate a relative who doesn't respect you or your possessions?

Your cousin threw a tantrum herself instead. Her DD won't be learning how to behave better with that behaviour from her mum.

This^ @Lizzie.

Really not setting a great example and it's obviously rubbed off on the 4yo!