Have I been mean to this child?

[SureJan]

My baby DS is 6mo. My cousin came round to visit with her 4yo DD.
Baby has some toys, obviously nothing really for a 4yo to play with but I didn't mind at all her playing with the baby toys.
4yo started getting a little bit naughty (probably bored) & was snatching toys off the baby. Cousin, her mum, didn't say anything to her about it. Eventually I gently told her not to snatch, he's only a baby etc. Cousin not phased, didn't say a word to her. She didn't stop doing it so I started wrapping up the play date, picked up baby & said he was due a bottle, that sort of thing, to signal it was time they went home.
4yo started making a fuss when cousin said it was time to go & she was flustered. 4yo had baby's rattle in her hand & looked like she wasn't going to put it back. I nicely asked are you going to put the rattle back? They both ignored me. Cousin started saying bye, thanks for having us, 4yo still had hold of rattle. I said (nicely again) I'll take that rattle off you now, & she started kicking off really bad, screaming, crying etc. Cousin said nothing to me, just looked at her DD & looked blankly at me. I tried to tell 4yo it was baby's & baby needs it so it has to stay here - more screaming & crying, still no input from cousin. Then cousin says to 4yo, maybe SureJan will let you borrow it until we come again? I said sorry, no. Cousin rolled her eyes at me & said 'really?' in a very pissed off tone, & I stuck to my guns & said yes really, it's not hers to take!
Cousin cajoled & begged 4yo for a good minute or 2 to hand it over, with her screaming full pelt in her face, & eventually cousin snatched it off her, threw it onto the floor & dragged her out of the house saying 'thanks for fucking nothing' to me!
WIBU? Part of me feels bad because it was just a rattle & baby probably wouldn't have missed it, maybe I was being a bit mean? I'm sure cousin thinks I was just being awkward & making her suffer through an embarrassing tantrum that I could have easily stopped by letting her take the bloody thing.
But part of me thinks no, it's not my fault she won't discipline her DD & why should I just give her stuff to take home so that she gets an easier time? It was a rattle & she's 4yo so not age appropriate for her, I feel she was just pushing boundaries & didn't really want it.
I know it isn't my place to tell cousin how to discipline but I do feel she should have stepped in way before the rattle incident by telling her DD to stop snatching, play nicely, be gentle with baby etc. It annoyed me that she didn't!
Am I mean/unreasonable? I have no doubt that there will come a time when baby is older & tantrumming in similar fashion & I'll be able to empathise more, but I don't think in that situation I'd let him take the toy to keep him quiet.

YABU.

Your cousin was ineffective but she's family and perhaps she's struggling. I'd have let the 4yo have a toy to 'look after' and given her a big cuddle.

You might appreciate someone giving you the 'parenting' benefit of the doubt one day.

Why on earth should someone support shitty parenting just to placate a relative who doesn't respect you or your possessions

I think it's going a bit far to say she doesn't respect her or her possessions. And as a previous poster said, sometimes we all make parenting mistakes, sometimes we struggle and do the wrong thing and when it's a family member we care about, then we need to decide if it's really worth sticking it to them,

As said, I'm not sure either party was right, but there is no doubt if the cousin was to post her view point would be very different. Example

"I'm going through a terrible stage with my daughter, she has the tantrums and it's exhausting. I'm struggling with depression and things at home. In addition my daughter may have some additional needs and is very demanding. I went to see my cousin and my daughter got hold of her babies rattle, it wasn't one that the baby played with and wanted to take it home.

I'd have returned it immediately if she had, but she insisted she wanted the rattle back when it was very clear it would cause a full melt down. I know I should have taken it off her, but I just wanted one nice visit and it was clear the rattle wasn't an important toy to her baby. Am I being unreasonable in thinking she could have shown a little compassion and let us borrow the rattle for a little while, just to help me through this? I'm so exhausted with the whole thing and don't think I can cope anymore. I can't stop crying.

I can't believe she repeatedly demanded the rattle then stood there coldly watching my daughter go into meltdown, and me struggle to deal with it. Sadly I exploded as I left, but I'm past the end of my tether with the tantrums and screaming I'm constantly having to deal with and my husband and family go out of their way to not support me. They all make it clear they think I'm a shit parent.

Would the responses then be your kids a brat, you're a shit parent, and you've no respect for others? I think not.

It would if she'd said that she demanded it, made no effort to get the child to return it then swore at her cousin as she stropped out of the house.

You were being precious and difficult. A tiny bit of generosity on your part would have made their evening 1000x easier

Lol at the comments from people who don’t have 4 year olds yet. Can’t wait to see how this goes. Come back in a few years and tell us all about your perfect child who’s never had one tantrum ever because you’re such a perfect parent. 😂 It’s very easy to “talk with” a 16 month old

Why are you blaming the OP for her cousins shit poor parenting? And are you deliberately ignoring the vast amount of posts from the parents of children who are 4+ who are also saying this is poor parenting?

If the cousin wished to avoid a tantrum then she should have asked out of the child’s ear shot whether she could borrow the rattle and would post it back / drop it round on xday or similiar.

She seems to have behaved in an annoyingly passive way and expected the OP to either be the adult for her, or be a mind reader...

YANBU OP. I can’t believe a 4yo would behave like this and was allowed to get away with it. It’s crazy! DD1 is 4, I would be absolutely mortified if she behaved like this. She wouldn’t dream of a) snatching from a baby or b) trying to take another child’s toy home. If she did, I wouldn’t be spending minutes begging her for it back, I’d tell her to put it back because it didn’t belong to her. If she refused, I’d give her a final warning and potential consequence (eg removal of screen time when we got home) and then if she still didn’t put it back I would calmly remove it from her hands, return to the OP and bloody well apologise for her behaviour.

If the OP’s cousin had just dealt with it swiftly in a no nonsense way it would never have escalated. My 4yo wouldn’t dream of trying to take someone else’s toy because we have just never entertained the idea that it might be possible!

^ What Bluntness said.

YANBU this is the age when they need to learn important stuff eg don't take stuff from other people's houses

No one disputes she should have told her child to hand the rattle back, and no it's not great parenting, but to many it's understandable parenting when faced with a full on strop and an insignificant item. Sometimes yes you do whatever to keep the peace

Understandable parenting? It's really not, it's terrible parenting. Why on earth should OP have been made to be a part of teaching this child brat to scream and tantrum to get what you want. The child is 4 for goodness sake, old enough to understand what no means.

My older than 4 child absolutely would try take a toy from somewhere because he doesn't understand personal possessions. Yes it gets removed from him everytime (fortunately he doesn't care enough about objects to kick off about it) but he still does it.

Bluntness100

In your alternative scenario, you've conveniently left out the part where the cousin threw the rattle on the floor and swore at the OP in front of her own child. I'm pretty sure she would've been told she was/is a disgrace to have behaved like that had she posted her own version of events.

I love how on MN one tiny example given from one person’s point of view is enough to decide conclusively that someone is a terrible mother and her child is a brat. Maybe they were just having an off day? Maybe her beloved pet cat died yesterday and she’s acting out? Maybe the cousins have always had issues and one didn’t want to visit at all and her DD sensed it and was stressed? There are a billion explanations that don’t have to be “she’s a shit mother and the kid’s a brat”.

Its not a matter of being socialised but disciplined. It isnt her toy. Mum should have said to put it back as many times as necessary. Instead she blamed the op and went for an easy life.except its not easier in the long run. However the blankness described sounds like pnd could that be the case?

Lemon, she covered that: “Sadly I exploded as I left, but I'm past the end of my tether...”

As i said my nephew behaves likes this. He is allowed to do what he likes. He is 4 but only just.

My sister will give a half hearted attempt at no and then give in to him because she cannot be bothered with the aggravation.

What she has actually done is show him that she will give in to no more often than not and what he has to do to get his own way is throw a huge tantrum. He knows he gets what he wants if he throws a huge tantrum and so he does.

It sounds as though this child is the same. She knows she has to really go for it to get what she wants and she does.

This sounds like the first time she has ever been told no and had someone mean it. She probably would have lost interest in the rattle as soon as she got it out the door and didnt really want it.

Iwasjustabouttosaythat

That's just life, we still manage to discipline our children when having a bad day. She absolutely is a shit parent...she herself threw a tantrum in front of her own child, the child has no chance of knowing how to behave when her mother is behaving like that. The poor kid is in for one hell of a shock when she starts school, what's the bets the mother will be 'that' parent, never away from the school complaining when her daughter has to be disciplined.

I had 4 year olds. Seriously this is not on. You cannot let them do this shit. Taking other people's things isn't some flexible notion.

YANBU but your cousin might not BU either...

YANBU to ask for the LG to leave the rattle behind. It belongs to your DS and it is right that LG understands that she can't have everything she wants.

In an ideal world, we would all have infinite patience and energy to deal with tantrums and meltdowns but in reality, it's not always possible.

If your cousin doesn't discipline as a matter of course then this is obviously an issue that she needs to fix but if she does, and this was just the 100th tantrum of the day with a high needs / 'spirited' child then I do have some sympathy for her as it is bloody exhausting.

One day your DS might be a stroppy toddler too and you might be the one who is knackered, fed up and just wants a quiet afternoon with no more tantrums. I was opinionated about the way other parents dealt with meltdowns until I had a very highly strung and impatient / frustrated toddler of my own to deal with... Knowing how to discipline / create and maintain boundaries is one thing but some kids are just easier than others.

In any event I don't think YABU, it only affects how you resolve it with your cousin. I hope you can fix it together.

Lemon, she covered that: “Sadly I exploded as I left, but I'm past the end of my tether...”

No didn't cover it at all, this covers it...

"Eventually I snatched it off DD, threw it on the floor and dragged DD out of her house and said to my cousin THANKS FOR FUCKING NOTHING"

Yanbu.

You've disciplined your cousin and child in one.

Otherwise in a couple of years you'd have been back with a string of other bad behaviour she'd ignored. Wondering why you didn't just say in the first place. "That's the baby's toy it stays here". And mean it.

If your cousin continues to tantrum and doesn't come back, that's probably no bad thing.

Interesting to think of it from cousin's point of view. We aren't really close so for all I know, the example scenario that Bluntness has offered could be close to her reality.
In hindsight yeah, I could have been a bit more compassionate & let them take the rattle. It wouldn't have impacted on me or baby to let it go, & as someone said earlier - not my 4yo, not my problem.
I think it was just my automatic reaction to insist on the rattle being handed back because I fully expected cousin to not want her DD to take it home, I thought cousin would eventually say 'no, you can't have it'. When she didn't, & then when she asked to borrow it, well I suppose my stubborn streak came out & I just thought no, I'm not having this when you've done nothing about DD's behaviour for the whole visit. Maybe that's a bit mean & judgemental of me.
I've never really had any dealings with 4yo's, or any kids older than my own baby, so I totally accept that I've not a clue what it's like to parent them. Maybe when my baby is 4 & I find myself in a similar situation I'll remember this & sympathise with cousin. I'd hope to deal with it differently than her, but who knows?

I can't believe when people say she should have let her keep it for now - she needs to learn that things that belong to other people are not for taking, unless they're given. If cousin is struggling she's going to struggle a lot worse until she tells her child how to behave properly - you did the right thing

YANBU

I have a 4yo and would never let her take someone elses toy.

But then she knows not to snatch off a baby and if she did I'd be straight on her.

Your cousin is the unreasonable one. For the child to behave like this still at 4 I'd say there's a lot of her letting the child have whatever just for an easy life.

If it was a 2yo I'd feel different, but at 4 they should know better when it comes to a baby.

It is the oldest childhood rule in the book. You do not take things that dont belong to you.

If cousin cant even teach that......

Cousin needs to learn to parent her child.