Have I been mean to this child?

[SureJan]

My baby DS is 6mo. My cousin came round to visit with her 4yo DD.
Baby has some toys, obviously nothing really for a 4yo to play with but I didn't mind at all her playing with the baby toys.
4yo started getting a little bit naughty (probably bored) & was snatching toys off the baby. Cousin, her mum, didn't say anything to her about it. Eventually I gently told her not to snatch, he's only a baby etc. Cousin not phased, didn't say a word to her. She didn't stop doing it so I started wrapping up the play date, picked up baby & said he was due a bottle, that sort of thing, to signal it was time they went home.
4yo started making a fuss when cousin said it was time to go & she was flustered. 4yo had baby's rattle in her hand & looked like she wasn't going to put it back. I nicely asked are you going to put the rattle back? They both ignored me. Cousin started saying bye, thanks for having us, 4yo still had hold of rattle. I said (nicely again) I'll take that rattle off you now, & she started kicking off really bad, screaming, crying etc. Cousin said nothing to me, just looked at her DD & looked blankly at me. I tried to tell 4yo it was baby's & baby needs it so it has to stay here - more screaming & crying, still no input from cousin. Then cousin says to 4yo, maybe SureJan will let you borrow it until we come again? I said sorry, no. Cousin rolled her eyes at me & said 'really?' in a very pissed off tone, & I stuck to my guns & said yes really, it's not hers to take!
Cousin cajoled & begged 4yo for a good minute or 2 to hand it over, with her screaming full pelt in her face, & eventually cousin snatched it off her, threw it onto the floor & dragged her out of the house saying 'thanks for fucking nothing' to me!
WIBU? Part of me feels bad because it was just a rattle & baby probably wouldn't have missed it, maybe I was being a bit mean? I'm sure cousin thinks I was just being awkward & making her suffer through an embarrassing tantrum that I could have easily stopped by letting her take the bloody thing.
But part of me thinks no, it's not my fault she won't discipline her DD & why should I just give her stuff to take home so that she gets an easier time? It was a rattle & she's 4yo so not age appropriate for her, I feel she was just pushing boundaries & didn't really want it.
I know it isn't my place to tell cousin how to discipline but I do feel she should have stepped in way before the rattle incident by telling her DD to stop snatching, play nicely, be gentle with baby etc. It annoyed me that she didn't!
Am I mean/unreasonable? I have no doubt that there will come a time when baby is older & tantrumming in similar fashion & I'll be able to empathise more, but I don't think in that situation I'd let him take the toy to keep him quiet.

Strop not strip

No, the four year old is just a brat and the mother is the cause.

Your cousin sounds like a fucking idiot, has she got previous form?

Yanbu with bells on.

People who are saying 'it's just a rattle' are missing the lesson here. The cousin was teaching her child that it's ok to take things from a baby. Not ok and a definite way to raise a mini Veruca Salt.

She is going to have a hell of a time once she gets to school.

"Sometimes when people are hosting they are focusing so much on petty things that they forget that the visitor might be having a shit time and doing their best with the few resources they have with them. You should have done more to entertain the bored 4 year old (just a baby). What did you expect the 4 year old to do? Sit there politely watching your baby play? If I were you I would have let the 4yr old play with anything I had and not worry so much about the parenting of your cousin. Just my opinion." I agree with this.... I wouldn't have let my 4 year old take someone else's toy, but I think you were being too uptight about things - she was your guest - it was a rattle, not an expensive phone. I would've let the 4 year old play with any available toy to her heart's content...

From what I've seen she's not the best behaved little girl & cousin doesn't seem to do much disciplining, like I say I think she's a bit self conscious about telling her DD off in front of other people so she tends not to bother.

YANBU
My niece is 5 and does this each time she comes to our house, most weeks. I'm not sure if its some kind of primitive territorial thing? I have lots to jeep her entertained as shes only 18months older than my daughter but she always wants to take something. Each week I just set the boundary that we dont borrow toys from one anothers houses but shes welcome to play with it next week. Luckily her mum backs me up! It isnt the four year olds fault its the mother's fault...and for swearing at you too!

I did let her play with everything we had, there was nothing (toy-wise) that I told her she couldn't play with. I just drew the line at her taking things home.
In all honesty I didn't expect to have to say 'you can't take that with you' because I assumed cousin, her mum, would have said that to her. When it became clear that cousin wasn't going to challenge it I felt I had to step in & say no. Yes it was only a rattle, but it could just as easily have been something more important or expensive, & I wouldn't have been expected to allow it then would I?

YANBU, and I'm amazed that anyone thinks you were/are.

This isn't about the rattle. It's about the fact that your cousin is a terrible parent, who needs parenting classes. She's not doing her child any favours by thinking her behaviour is okay.

eventually cousin snatched it off her, threw it onto the floor & dragged her out of the house saying 'thanks for fucking nothing' to me!
Anyone who behaved like that in my home, especially swearing at me, would be cut off permanently. Was she also a product a poor parenting as a child?

I've found some parents just disengaged from their children. They don't seem to have a clue about discipline, entertaining them or even how to talk to them.

Yesterday I saw a group of women in the town centre; they had a young child pushing a toy pushchair along and she was falling behind the group. She started panicking and the mum stopped, swore loudly, went back, told her to hurry up and dragged her to the group. She then started falling behind again.

She has little legs - she can't keep up so slow down or carry her! Then I noticed she had heels on her shoes.....

I can see both sides tbh.

When your child is four, I think you may be less bothered about such things but I also think it is your right to decide if things leave your house or not.

The child's mum should have brought a few things with her to entertain her child e.g colouring book/markers. When I had my first baby and friends with young children called, I always had a few things in the house that might entertain them, always put on the tv as well as having food I thought they might like since having children myself I realise this food was not what kids would choose

Don't be too quick to judge your friend's parenting skills. She could be exhausted from having daily battles. I have a four year old and am regularly embarrassed by her behaviour despite being constantly on her case.

Yep, I think if even you noticed the 4yo getting increasingly stressed from being bored, having nothing to play with other than a few baby toys, probably being hungry by then, her mother could probably see that an eruption was imminent. Maybe they stayed longer than they intended to?

Yes, the mother should have given the rattle back, and should absolutely not have been swearing, but you caused SO MUCH drama by not just letting her borrow the stupid thing that your baby would have already forgotten about. You were being precious and difficult. A tiny bit of generosity on your part would have made their evening 1000x easier.

Lol at the comments from people who don’t have 4 year olds yet. Can’t wait to see how this goes. Come back in a few years and tell us all about your perfect child who’s never had one tantrum ever because you’re such a perfect parent. 😂 It’s very easy to “talk with” a 16 month old.

The op caused nothing. The mum caused it by suggesting to her child that she might be able to take something home without checking first.
It’s been a while since mine were 4 but it used to piss me off immensely when my kids were creating and some helpful bystander decided to say they could have whatever it was they wanted or whatever they were doIng that they shouldn’t have been was ‘fine’. Might stop that tantrum but you’ll get it tenfold the next time when they can’t take the toy or whatever.

Yanbu. Your cousin was a lazy, passive, crap parent! She should have brought things for her child to play with while she was visiting.

The child obviously became fixated on one baby toy and was jealous of the baby getting all the attention. It was her mother's job to intervene before it got to tantrum stage. Allowing her to scream in her face in someone else's house would be a big no to me. She should have removed her from the room immediately and taken the toy away.
A 4 year old is not a baby or a toddler.

I think parenting classes should now be mandatory as so many people haven't a clue how to interact with or discipline their kids.

You were right to step in as you did but you shouldn't have had to. Shame on her swearing like that in front of her child too.

I'm surprised at the number of parents on here who said the OP should have let it go, despite the majority saying Yanbu. I guess this is why you do get bad behaviour at nursery and toddler groups etc if some think it's acceptable to always give in to a tantrum.

If the 4 (!) year old had got attached to a toy at the doctor's surgery or a church toddler group should she also just be let have it, so the mother just goes around stealing toys as she can't say no to her child?

My dc is not even 3 and would not do that but that's because I've lived through the tantrums where she wants to keep something and I've not let her.

Terrible parenting from cousin and she's obviously going to have much bigger problems with that kid at a later date.

yanbu! I wouldn't let my 2.5 year old behave that way, let alone a 4yo. I'm embarrassed for your cousin, and feel sorry for her daughter who isn't getting the guidance and gentle discipline that she needs at that age.

She obviously thinks knows that tantrums are an effective way to get what she wants.

You did the right thing. Might need a quick call wth your cousin though to heal wounds- she did the wrong thing but might have had a shitty day before/after that episode and could need some support. She might be feeling out of control herself and embarrassed now. Don't let it define your relationship.

YANBU

She's teaching her child that it's OK to take things from other people's houses when she goes over to play. That's a horrible lesson to teach a 4 year old. This won't be the last time that child cries because she can't take something that isn't hers.

She's also teaching her child that screaming and crying work. She obviously rewards that behavior all the time and expects other people to as well.

While it is completely normal for young children to occasionally scream and cry (especially after hearing the word "no"), the ones who then get what they wanted do it a heck of a lot more for a longer period of their life and than the one who don't then get what they wanted. It's quite simple - if you reward a behavior, you will get more of that behavior.

Was it worth the kerfuffle it caused?

Good grief NYNM you sound as bad as the girl's mother.

Of course it was worth it. It's about teaching children manners and principles. You don't just waltz out of people's houses with whichever of their belongings take your fancy and there is no such thing as too soon a time to learn that.

OP you did the right thing. The you little niece was probably acting up a bit because she was either bored, or jealous around the baby who no doubt would have been getting loads of attention from you (and possibly her mum) that would previously have been reserved for her.

Parenting is hard, battling with toddlers is hard but we can't just opt out for an easy life every flipping time or we are creating some sort of monster for the future.

I have only ever once fallen out with my sister and it was over a very similar thing.

You did this over a rattle? I find that amazing.
One of the biggest lessons in parenting is learning which battles to fight, and not to sweat the small stuff.

It's not about the rattle though, is it? I find it amazing that you can't see that.

Reading some of the responses on here makes it all crystal clear why some children become such insufferable, rude, spoilt brats with poor social skills and few friends. A few kids I've known are springing to mind here and knowing their parents loosely I can just imagine they were the no backbone types like the OP's cousin.

My dc is not even 3 and would not do that but that's because I've lived through the tantrums where she wants to keep something and I've not let her

Please look up some threenager threads on here. Pleeeeaaaaase! I dare you. 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

Then some “fearsome fours” threads.

Not even three. Haaahahahaaaheeee!

A relative and I lived thousands of miles away from each other and so I didn’t know how she got along with her children very well. When I was visiting her for the first time in 4 yrs I noticed she wasn’t telling her 5 yr old son to stop misbehaving and boy, was he misbehaving! Days later I discovered she wasn’t telling him “no” because he not only wouldn’t listen he would also become very rude to her. She just didn’t want to look like a fool in front of company. Your cousin was doing the same thing and mark my words, she is going to have her hands full when her child is a teenager.

WTF?! Why would anyone think it okay that a four year old gets to take what she wants from houses she visits simply because she has a fucking useless piece of shit mum who is raising another entitled brat typical of this next generation?!

Good on you OP.

I would have done exactly the same thing as you have done.

Those commenting 'pick your battles', I agree when it comes to you and your child, but giving in because a toddler is making the rules and your cousin can't be stuffed....yeah, you did the right thing. Sure baby would not have been phased in the slighest, but how many things are you going to let walk out the door to avoid an arguement.

Items stay at the owners household, unless previously organised. Hats off for standing up to yourself!

@astridwhite is bang on point!!

It’s so frustrating watching people ignore their kids misbehaving and/or wheedling at them to stop. Heavens sake people, woman/man up and show them how to behave. They’re only little and need your guidance.

YANBU.