Update on "should my daughter change schools?"

[StillWorkingOnACleverNN]

Summary of previous thread (I don't know how to link!). DD (year 4) is in a classroom with a difficult teacher and started pulling out her hair. We discovered the depth of the problem 4 weeks ago and have been trying to understand if it's just the classroom (it is) and if she has some other mental issues (she doesn't). On the previous thread, I was trying to decide whether to take her out of the school or not. There were many helpful suggestions about how to think about the issue.

DD's therapist met with DD several times and recommended that she NOT go back into the classroom, but rather change classrooms. The school was shocked and I think really didn’t expect this recommendation. (They have worked with the therapist around other children in the past and trust her)

The school is taking the problem seriously and is trying to keep DD in the school rather than moving. There is some huge self-imposed constraint about moving to the other class so that may not be possible. They haven't had a child change classrooms in the last 30 years. We are are exploring things they can put into place to keep her in the current class. They are willing to think outside of the box. Another teacher I trust will be in the class all the time this week so we are OK with sending DD to class while they look into these options or think about how to make it possible for her to switch classes.

It’s still possible they won’t be able to offer something we are OK with, not because they don’t want to but because the fallout from the solution would be worse than having her leave, and we may end up sending her to another school, but we’re all working collaboratively to try to avoid that.

They’ve asked for us to send as wide a list of options as we can for keeping her in the class for the rest of the year. I’ve come up with a few, but if you have other ideas please tell me! We’re sending them this list tomorrow morning so they have some time to think it through. Assume the teacher is toxic (without knowing it), open to change, but the change is going to happen slowly and the solution has to be through June.

My current ideas are:
Full time other adult in the class who has a relationship with the teacher where she intervenes on-the-spot when needed as well as giving continual feedback after class hours (I don’t want to say coach or co-teacher or whatever because it would be a unique role).

Send the teacher on sabbatical to do some special project for the rest of the year. Or offer early retirement.

Open another Year 4 class and ask for volunteer parents to move their children to the new class. This is not as crazy as it sounds. They have an empty classroom, the school is current expanding from 2 forms per year to 3 forms per year, and the expansion year is currently Year 2. There would be several parents who would volunteer.

Can you think of anything else?

It also seems extraordinary to me that a teacher with so many problems with other pupils is still in the position of looking after a class. Surely the school must take some action. Has anyone spoken to the teacher to get her perspective on why your DD has a problem, and why so many other pupils have had a problem?

TBH, I would either insist on another class NOW or pull her and put her in another school. The more you delay, the more behind and stressed your DD will get.

I absolutely agree with lashings and evil!

I have read both threads, and I, too, think you have misunderstood the focus of the strategies you have been asked to think of. They are not asking you to think of teacher management ideas, but daughter support ideas.

Additionally, I do think that it will make it worse if you charge in with a massive support strategy that is inflexible and constant. It needs to be put in place with a very clear and planned scale-back strategy as your DD2 becomes more comfortable and relaxed again, so that she can regain her independence without feeling abandoned.

Op, I wouldn't dismiss the idea that your daughter could have a more general form of anxiety. My anxiety only rears it's head when I am faced with problems/challenges. I then obsess over minute details trying to find solutions to situations that are often beyond my control. At all other times I am easy-going and perfectly functional. Is she very bright?
Even if the school agrees to moving your daughter, I would still look at continuing counselling.

At the risk of inviting more criticism, I will explain further what (I think) the teacher does that is so insidious, so difficult to pin down, and so easy for the school to pass on. And why the school has finally recognized (under new leadership) that it's something that required a drastic immediate change for DD and for the other children.

Her way of interacting with children demeans their sense of self. They are constantly told they are wrong, not good enough, didn't try hard enough, aren't doing enough. Constantly. This looks like high standards. But I have had teachers who have high standards who are encouraging, supportive, and the children are able to stretch and reach them. This isn't what that is.

Some children have a sense of self that doesn't refer much to the adult's opinion of them, some still refer to the adults a bit, and some refer to the adults a lot. This is child development at this age and also temperament. My older daughter who had this teacher didn't care if the teacher said she was reading books that were too hard for her, because she knew the teacher was wrong. So she read a simple book for homework, ticked the box, and returned to the books she loved in free time. My younger daughter cares what the adults in her life think of her a lot. So when she is told that the books she reads are too hard, that she doesn't understand them, so is really confused because she knows she does understand them but why does the teacher think that? Am I wrong? What's wrong with me that I think I understand the books but I don't really? (the teacher has a website where you enter a book title and they tell if you if it's Year 4 appropriate, Year 5 appropriate, etc. By reading level, not content. She is adamant that all kids read Year 4 appropriate books).

Or - if the teacher says she didn't try hard enough on something, my older DD would shrug her shoulders and think of course she did, and my younger DD would think but I DID try hard! why was that not good enough? etc.

I haven't understood this about DD before because she has been with adults who have good child-adult relationships, demand a lot but encourage, recognize efforts, etc. And before you assume she does not do well at school, she is at the top of her class.

DD is NOT THE ONLY ONE who is affected. A few other parents came to me at the beginning of the year with the reading example. I told them to do what my older DD did - read the simple book for homework but whatever they want for fun - and focus on the teacher strengths. (A few) children do fine in the class if they don't really care what the teacher thinks. (Many) children suffer a little but get on with it. (Some) children are really damaged but it's very hard to connect their symptoms with the teacher's style.

THIS IS NOT A READING ISSUE. That was an example that illustrates all day, every day in the classroom.

This is very hard to pin down by example for the MN audience. And of course some children are fine and others only mildly affected so the school can say that there is something wrong with the children who have reacted dramatically and not the teacher. That's what has happened in the past.

The teacher has tried in her own way to respond to what she understands to be the problem. She has "compliment" pages where she writes nice things about the children. DD gets a lot of compliments about her clothing. She's trying.

This brings up an interesting issue for me as a parent. My other three children, and myself and my husband, really don't refer to other people in our assessment of ourselves (if I did I'd be traumatized by this MN thread ) This is a strength and a weakness for me. I'm logical, organized, efficient etc at work but I don't always anticipate other people's reactions. DD3 is attuned to other people in a way I'm not. She is deeply connected to her friends in a way the other children aren't (which is why leaving the school would be hard). What does this mean for parenting her, as a child and in our family that is different in this way? What are the opportunities and vulnerabilities for being this kind of person? What do we need to watch for now, and as she goes through adolescence? How do we help her understand herself? It's really, really interesting and one of the best things to come out of this.

And now I'll be told how insane I am which is OK, because I know I'm not.

I'd still like useful suggestions if anyone has them.

They don't want to switch classes because it would be so disruptive for the faculty and other parents would want to leave the class as well.

How is one child moving classes ‘so disruptive for the faculty’??

As for the other parents, they just get told no, and that your DD is a one-off.

The management at this school sound bloody useless. The obvious, most simple and drama-free solution is for your DD to move class.

Oh, and since I'm about to be totally demonized, I'll mention something I have held back. The teacher is Chinese-American and raised in a very Chinese environment (Chinatown). In previous years, she and I have had really interesting conversations about the differences between Chinese approaches to education and American. When the book Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother came out, she said she completely recognized her childhood in that book. So I am not saying all Chinese-American people are overly critical to children and Chinese education damages all children, but this teacher's approach can be understood to some extent through that lens.

You have been given suggestions but have ignored them - maybe because they are not the ones you want to hear.

All the examples you have stated re the teacher are not sackable offences

Op - honestly you need to teach your daughter resilience - you can’t go through her life removing everyone who might rub her up slightly the wrong way. She’ll never be able to get a good professional job if she can’t develop resilience and the ability to get on and work with all types of people

a few other parents came to me in what aspect? Your role within the school or as fellow parent? Why you? This is sounding more and more like a personal vendetta /witch hunt against this teacher.

I don't have any suggestions on how to reconfigure the classroom, but your dd sounds like a fairly typical perfectionist type of which I see a lot at university- they tend to do very well academically, but feel crestfallen or even extremely anxious if the teacher is too harsh, not just towards them but in general. I was like this as a child and lived in terror of being told off, even though it rarely happened to me.

I think if your dd depends a lot on what others think and fears judgement/a tougher style of 'standards', then she may find being in school an anxious type of place full stop, especially once you start to be aware of who is doing well, where your position is in the class, what the teacher thinks of you- I've always been terrified of disappointing everyone and them seeing the 'truth' that I'm not that great. It's a form of imposter syndrome I suppose, and very typical of a lot of high achieving girls in particular.

I have no idea where this takes you, probably a change of class might help, but my feeling is that your dd is expressing negativity for the first time in her life and you are finding it difficult to deal with it. I've found my own children's anxiety, even when it was quite minor and not actually that bad, to be very difficult to cope with as it makes me think they are going to be like me, even though as an adult, I cope pretty well, have good resilience and so forth. I found it especially hard around 7/8 when my children started being less pleased by simple things, critical of the world around them, and have stresses and difficulties with things like school demands (both mine have got a bit anxious over homework at various time points) or friendship issues.

If none of this hits home, then great- this might just be an isolated thing to do with this teacher, but my feeling is that it may just be a developmental stage where your dd starts to have more adult feelings (like anxiety, stress behaviours) and is not the tiny easily pleased child she was any more- they are directed at this teacher but could be about something else.

I would still push for a change of class because I think it's worth trying it when it's really no big deal to the school (even though they are making it one). I don't think you can always change environments though with a child who has become a tiny bit anxious- so stuff like relaxation, having someone to talk with, and so on works too, Good luck with it all.

shakeyourcaboose It was "your older dd was in the class, my child is having a hard time, what should I do?" They were DD's friends' mothers and people I chat with about all sorts of issues, parenting and otherwise. I said to do was DD did and teach their kids resilience. When I realized the extend of DD's problem in the class, I stopped talking to them about it.

Many people have mentioned resilience.

This ^

What a nightmare working at that school with Gossipy McGossips analysing everything through the eyes of their 4 year olds.

I'd still like useful suggestions if anyone has them

That comes across quite rude when you've completely ignored decent suggestions people have made in good faith, eg oldbirdy. I hope it's just a crosspost.

Still not seeing what the teacher is doing. Even with with reading example.

You say she expects high standards yet your whole analytical example is about her telling the children to read simpler texts to make sure they grasp all the basics of comprehension before moving on.

You even admitted yourself that your DD reaction to this is "whhhaaaatttttt am I not good enough am I not good enough at reading blah blah"

Yet you say over and over she doesn't have an issue with anxiety. You say her self worth is centered on others opinions of her - yet say the teachers the problem.

As a latent with an anxious child I can tell you that your DD has a problem with emotional regulation. Her whole resilience and emotional stability rests on the need for praise and reassurance and an external force reaffirming her self worth.

She needs strategies in the classroom - but to help her manage her self - help her gain resilience and learn that eternal forces (words and expressions) don't change the truth and are just an opinion.

And the reason is likely reared it's head now is her age. You clearly like analysing against theory - well read Piaget.
Most children aged 7+ have learnt the world does not evolve around them and their feelings. They have moved past the egotistical stage. Those with social and emotional delay won't have developed this yet.

Teaching and curriculum follows Piaget theory. The type of teaching in a classroom of children aged 7+ will be different. If your DD isn't cooking with this it's because she has social and emotional delay - which is clearly highlighted by her self harm.

Your DD will come across people who's teaching style doesn't suit her personality and will continue to come across people who's personality clashes with her expression of self. Therefore she needs strategies to cope with this. That's what the school is asking you for.

thetreesareallgone thank you for this - of course we will remain alert to how she's doing in the future. She stopped the hair pulling right away but she needs other strategies for dealing with stress. And we need to watch when she's in difficult situations in the future to see how it plays out then. We've seen no signs of anxiety in other areas or outside of school but I don't think I'm a deny-er. I'm pretty sure she's not a perfectionist. I'm not sure how to describe it but she gave her cousin a half-colored birthday card yesterday, she doesn't mind mismatched socks if she's in a hurry, she never cleans her room, she doesn't have to have a new piece of paper every time she dislikes her drawing, she's fine with changes in routine etc. I know what perfectionist kids look like and that's not her thing. I think it's more that she cares what other people think of her, though I don't think it's extreme.

youarenotkiddingme The school follows Vgotsky. The fundamental role of social interaction in the development of cognition, including understanding of self. Here's a comparison with Piaget: www.simplypsychology.org/vygotsky.html

I still think that you are focusing to much on the teacher and not on the coping strategies for your child.

still working
You are kind of rather spetacularly missing the point that everyone is trying to tell you. I see very little on this thread that suggests that people think your analysis of the teacher - that she is not a great teacher, and is a terrible fit for your daughter - is wrong. What many of us think us wrong, is your analysis of what the school wants you to do about it.

Many of us who work in schools regularly, either as SEN consultants or in senior management, recognise that sometimes teachers contribute to the exacerbation of children's needs. Sometimes, many times, this is accidental. We believe that your DD is finding this teacher hard. We believe that the school has asked you for some suggestions to improve the situation for your DD.

What we don't believe, is that the school intended your suggestions to be about the competence of the teacher, about sending her on sabbatical, or arranging for her early retirement. We suspect that the school intended you to generate some strategies in relation to your daughter, not her teacher.

skyistoohigh sorry, I didn't mean to overlook the useful ones I've got. I'm keeping a list. I meant the more the better. And sorry oldbirdlady for not responding and thank you for the suggestions.

If you work there I'd feel very uncomfortable with them taking any if your suggestions.
Otherwise next time a parent takes a dislike to you you may find it suggested you take early retirement.

I'm another who hair pulls. It really isn't connected with stress for me. I start doing it and then it very quickly becomes a habit. So I go through phases where I'm doing it a lot and then have to really forcably stop myself. I have never done it when stressed, if anything it tends to be when I'm not doing a lot.

oldbirdy this is from an email from the deputy head confirming a phone conversation we had: Having the list from you re what would be necessary for DD to stay in Teachers's class in advance of our meeting would be helpful so that we can be as productive as possible and move the conversation along to conclusion asap. By Monday would be great.

The deputy is staying in the class all day, every day next week. So yes, we are talking that level of intervention.

Yeah I know Vygotsky. Although his theories weren't ever completed as he died in his lates 30's

So if they follow his theory are they investigating why dd has such intense friendships and intense interaction and the effect on her cognition and self worth? There must be a link.

This isn't about one teacher - it's about DD mindset. And she stopped hair pulling fairly quickly. My ds has stopped head banging as often and severely as he used to by it was a much longer process and is still there - he's just learnt to control it.

So I'd say the therapy has been a success with your dd tbh.