AIBU to wonder if earlier generations really viewed early miscarriages differently?

[KitKat1985]

Just interested in garnering opinions on this really. I have debated whether to post this at all as I'm aware the subject matter is a sensitive one for a lot of people, so I've tried to really clear in the title that it's a thread about early miscarriages so those who don't want to read the whole post don't have to. But it's a conversation that really got me wondering recently so wanted to hear some views on it. I had a conversation recently with some women who were from a previous generation (think late 50's onwards). They basically said that back when they were having babies you weren't even really considered to be pregnant until you had missed two periods (so I guess would be about 8 weeks). They said they may have had occasions whereby they were late etc, but if they bled before the '2 missed period' mark they said they just put it down as 'one of those things', and were a bit dismissive about people in this generation who would report being really upset because they were having a miscarriage when it was very early on in their pregnancy. They also said that these days because of early sensitivity tests etc, people often consider themselves to be pregnant sometimes before their period is even late, which in their opinion was wrong and just led to a lot more heartbreak if things then didn't progress well. I'm wondering if they're telling the whole truth or not about how previous generations viewed early miscarriages. I can't completely believe that in a previous generation women didn't also feel a bit devastated if they started bleeding after they were late, and therefore must have probably also worked out that they were having an early pregnancy loss. I can to some extent sympathise with their theory though that testing really early can lead to more heartache. Do you think early miscarriages really were viewed differently a generation ago? Or do you think it was just more a taboo subject and if women were very upset about early losses they were just under societal pressure not to say it?

hazy yes, ''interfering with what nature intended'' is how my mother (described above) would put it.

There was actually a long-running historical debate about whether pre-modern people loved their children in different ways to modern ones because of the higher chance of infant death. Most people now think that they did indeed mourn their children just as deeply, though there may have been some comfort in the fact that so many others shared their experience (child death is - thankfully - now rare enough that people often describe it as an isolating experience; that can't have been true in the sixteenth century). I happened to be having a look at this digital exhibition for something else the other day and saw this: exhibitions.lib.cam.ac.uk/reformation/artifacts/the-birth-of-all-my-children-frances-matthews-family-notes/ - a sixteenth-century woman who recorded the births and deaths of all her children, including the one who was stillborn and the two who died in the first year of life. I don't think we can doubt that she considered these significant, and as much her children as the ones who lived.

Re child mortality rates Professor Google is telling me that in the middle of the 1800s, a quarter of all babies born in European countries died before their first birthday. That rate obviously has declined year after year.

"He never changed a nappy"

Plenty of men like that nowadays!

Not wanting to play ancestor top trumps, but my grandfather was born in 1865 (yep, really!) and , according to my mother and aunts, changed nappies, washed and cooked and was very good at doing little girls' hair. He also taught his dds to shoot and use tools. He may not have been an "average man" but I am sure he wasn't alone.

And actually, when I misacrried, I found thinking of it as nature doing its job bleak but comforting.

Considered to be 'natures way' of dealing with embryo/ foetus that was probably not secure or normal.

That is exactly what the expert I saw at one of the country's leading recurrent miscarriage clinics (the Coventry one) said, too - his theory was that my body might be overly receptive and so letting sub-par embryos (that most women's bodies rejected) implant, in which case the subsequent miscarriages were both inevitable and necessary. However, he was also kind, compassionate, and acknowledged what an awful toll recurrent miscarriage takes on women and their partners. I don't see how seeing miscarriage as usually being the result of an embryo that was never viable (which is medical fact) equates to thinking that women shouldn't be upset or offered compassion when they've had one.

Of course people mourned in the past. But bereavement was also an every day part of life. My gran lost her mum, brother and dad when she was only 12 years old. That would be extremely rare in modern Britain.

I had my DC in 1974 & 1977. No HPT then - with my first, I saw my GP when I was about 3 weeks overdue (I had very regular periods) and he sent off a sample of my urine to be tested - I had to ring up a week (!) later for the result - and when it was positive, I immediately told everyone that I knew (no doubts about whether things would be okay - and certainly no scans in those days).
With my second, I went to see him when I was 2 weeks overdue & he asked whether I felt pregnant (!?!?) I said yes, and he replied that he'd book me into the same hospital for the birth.... That was it..
It really was a very different era....

My grandmother born 100 years ago remembered when one of her younger brothers died whilst he was baby and how upset her mother was.
When my son was stillborn she said that it happens to many but it is a terrible thing to go through.
One of dh's relatives told me that she had a full term stillbirth ( would have been in the 40s) She never saw the baby or knew the sex or what happened to them and how good it was that things are different now.

Yes, it was deckoff - I really liked him too, and I sent him an email with a couple of questions about my current pregnancy in a bit of a panicky moment and he sent back a nice reply. I also had a phone consultation with Siobhan Quenby, and thought she was really kind too. In general - and I suppose more relevantly to the thread - their approach suited me really well; compassionate and acknowledging that what you'd been through was real and important (which my local hospital did not), but pragmatic.

zzzz In the past there were public rituals to show you were mourning such as wearing a black sash. Some people who did this said it did actually help.
I do think it makes a difference if people have some understanding what you are going through. A relative of mine was murdered and speaking to other people who had that experience was helpful, as friends really had no understanding at all, however sympathetic they were.

Bertrand i'm sure my father with his reluctance to change a nappy (in the late 60s) was a product of his upbringing rather than his generation per se.

All the older women on his side of the family happily continued with the 'men can't find a tea spoon in the kitchen and wouldn't know which end to put a nappy' nonsense well into the late 70s. I remember it going on as a young kid.

I remember my mum complaining about it when i was very young (her MIL thought my dad shouldn't have to clean up his own shaving things and rows ensued) but has gradually morphed into her MIL since then

These are all yet more complication factors in this thread to understand how things were in 'the old days'

Research shows that men used to on average do less housework and childcare in the past than they currently do, although fifty fifty is still rare. Of course there are always exceptions, which is why research is important.

All the older women on his side of the family happily continued with the 'men can't find a tea spoon in the kitchen and wouldn't know which end to put a nappy' nonsense well into the late 70s. I remember it going on as a young kid.

To be fair I hear plenty of younger female friends doing the very same thing about DIY, car maintanence etc.

In the past (for the purposes of discussion let's say living memory so 1920s onwards) the societal norm was the man/dad out at work for c.10-12 hours a day, plus travel time, and the woman/mum at home with the kids. He'd probably be up and out the door before the kids were awake and by the time he got home, got changed/had a wash, and had his dinner they'd probably be on their way to bed if not already in bed before he got home. The attitude towards housework and childcare of "that's wimmins' work" stems from the fact that for much of history it was womens' work while the men were off doing paid jobs. Nowadays it's much more usual for both parents to work so childcare and housework either gets juggled between them or is outsourced (e.g., childminder, cleaner, etc).

Important to remember that the "man out to work women at home" is a middle class thing. Working class women have always worked outside the home.

My mother took a part time job when my younger brother started school. This was very unusual where I lived. All the neighbours were families where the man worked and the women stayed at home. There were lots of big families around though. Between our house and another 3 houses there were 29 children. This was a mining village in the 1960s - very much working class.

Most of the men didn't do anything related to childcare or housework, but fortunately my father was quite enlightened that way (to be truthful my mother was a strong woman who would have told him ) He would make dinners, tidy, vacuum, wash children etc. when he was home and my mother was working.

My mother had two full-term stillbirths. The hospital took my sister away (1962) and she never saw her again. when my stillborn brother was born a few years later my father brought him home and he's buried in the family grave. They weren't given names or certificates or really acknowledged. I remember vividly the huge sadness in the family among the adults though. People coming to visit my mother who was in bed as she had almost died.

My daughter had a beautiful baby girl who was stillborn in November. Also full-term. She has a name and a certificate. She had a lovely funeral. I, and other close family, had the privilege of holding her, including her older siblings. We have photographs etc. The hospital staff were amazing. They were dealing with another three women in the labour suite/post natal who had also lost their babies. It's so common and people don't even realise it.

Sorry for rambling.

Place marking to read later.

Important to remember that the "man out to work women at home" is a middle class thing. Working class women have always worked outside the home

More accurately a SOME m/c women thing. Many middle class women worked (teachers, social workers and lots of other professions tended to be middle class women, lots of them married), and also many working class women did not work.
It's not a simple division at all.

apostropheuse, I'm so sorry for your and your daughter's loss. How lovely that you were all able to have that time with your granddaughter and show her so much love