In wanting sahd dh to get a job

[witcheshats]

So today dh and I have been discussing our plans for 2018. He has been a sahd since we had dc (youngest now 5 and eldest 7) mainly because he had no career and I did.

When we first married he had some regular work to do with foreign students and it was regular and quite well-paid. He earned about 18k working about 4 non-consecutive months, so that on top of my salary (teacher) was great, and it mainly took place in school holidays so we had no childcare to pay as family helped out for the few weeks when it didn't. I thought this a near-perfect arrangement but he often moaned that he hated the work (boring apparently) and the people were so dull and conventional (unlike his stoner musician mates) and we could never have a holiday - we can't really afford one anyway.

Over the years, the work has fallen away and for the past two years he hasn't worked at all. I believe he had some sort of fall-out with his boss but I'm not really sure what happened. He thinks he's been treated unfairly, I think he may have antagonised her and done something wrong, but obviously will never really know.

I said nothing about his lack of work initially because it kind of fell away gradually and anyway he was at home with the dc. However, they are now both at school so I would like it if he started earning. We haven't discussed it much, but whenever we do he gets very defensive and says I don't care about him, want to see him stacking shelves etc etc. He has no real qualifications, aside from in the very specific field he appears to have cut himself off from, so I suppose he is quite limited in what he could go for, but that isn't my fault.

He is writing a book, has been for years, has had a few articles published in local magazines, plays in a band etc etc and I know he wants to expand all of that stuff, but meanwhile I am left with sole responsibility for bringing in money.

Anyway, today he revealed he has no intention of 'wasting time' on a 'shitty' job this year and instead would like to do a masters degree in creative writing. Obviously, this would have to be paid for out of my salary. I am devastated and just feel so lost and helpless. When I said I wasn't sure he got angry and said he would support me in anything I wanted to do, but that has a hollow ring to it somehow. He's now up in the attic and his fucking music is on and I'm pissed off.

If it's relevant and so as not to dripfeed, he is a good sahd and has done a fair bit with the dc in terms of playgroups etc, and he also loves cooking and does a lot from scratch - I rarely cook. He does most day to day cleaning/laundry and I do very little, though I pretty much take over with the dc when I'm home. I would obviously do more if he worked. He also has MS, though is not impaired by it atm and hasn't had an attack for three years.

AIBU or is he?

There are plenty of creative writing courses available he could do part time. Could he do one of them, is a full blown MA really necessary?

I am really insulted that some people on here seem to think that a writing MA is pie in the sky and a hobby. If your writing pays the bills, if you get published it isn't a hobby ( by definition).

OP, a decent uni will ask for a minimum of a 2;2 at undergrad level OR equivalent. The fact that he has been published in a few papers/magazines really won't cut it. I had to submit a portfolio of work as well as proof of degree IN CW. I sent my professor 5000 words of fiction, 5000 words of non fiction and 4-5 short stories or 10-20 line poems . They read the lot. The interview lasted 45 minutes. It was not just handed to me on a plate ( despite what some people seem to think on here!). One person out of my class of 22 has not got a degree, but he was a sub-editor for 11 years so met the previous learning/equivalency requirements. Any reputable uni will still require a 2;2 and even that has been relaxed since the loans came in, a few years ago it was a 2:1 !!

You're just wrong. Creative PG taught admissions will often admit non graduates on the strength of a portfolio.

By definition, it is not a "postgrad" course if non-graduates are admitted. If it is true that you can get a masters degree in only a year whether or not you have a first degree when bachelors degrees take at least three years it is a bit ridiculous.

Actually, it’s possible. APEL is sometimes considered, which is why I ended up supervising a PhD student with a distinction on MSc, but no B-level degree. They are currently a postdoc, and doing well. Their previous career had given them many of the skills required for the MSc, and they were super bright, so just thrived.

By definition, it is not a "postgrad" course if non-graduates are admitted. If it is true that you can get a masters degree in only a year whether or not you have a first degree when bachelors degrees take at least three years it is a bit ridiculous.

Lots of people used to come out of Art Schools with 2 year Diplomas, so I think there's a bit of a tradition there, and lots of people go into writing MAs with non-English degrees (varies a lot between institutions).

So someone with two years of HE, a good portfolio, and decent references would be a different from someone with no qualifications and an indifferent portfolio and no relevant work experience, say.

Using family money to pay for an MA when you don't have much of it floating around and have credit card debt isn't on at all in my book. He's being a child.

I agree with a PP who said it sounds like he likes the idea of being a writer - why else would he want to do a Masters instead of an undergraduate degree (especially when he isn't a graduate) or any other kind of creative writing course?

As PP have said, not many MA creative writing graduates make a living from writing, and some never even get published - is he aware of this? I think there's a lot of joy to be had from doing a course only for personal satisfaction but not so much when money is key as it is for you being the breadwinner and on a teacher's salary.

In your shoes, OP, I think I would be pointing out that most students work to subsidise their studies. If he wants to do an MA, always supposing they will have him, he needs to fund at least part of that and of his contribution to the family by working (and student loans etc). There are plenty of students who stack shelves, work in bars, do restaurant work and other 'shitty' jobs to fund their studies. If you were a highly paid banker or lawyer earning £££ then perhaps my thoughts would be different but you are not in a highly paid profession and do not, presumably, have money to burn.

Also, what will be the impact on your family arrangements as they now stand? Will you need extra childcare such as after school club and breakfast club to cover times when he is at university or studying? This would mean he would need to contribute to at least part of this cost. It is not a lot, generally, compared to nursery etc but it adds up over time.

Also, do you love him (enough to subsidise something that sounds a bit pie in the sky)? Do you trust him to use the MA to actually get a job or do you think it will just mean he's up in the attic for the next five years beavering away on a collection of poetry or something?

I think he should do the MA if he really wants to and will commit to it fully. But committing to it fully means funding at least part of it himself and having a plan to do something at the end of it that will bring in some money as well as actually doing the course.

Have you looked at entrance requirements for what he wants to do? Does he meet them?

Dh is lovely and supporting and supported me to make a career change but.... I (and he a bit) saved for the fees needed whilst I was working in my former career. My post grad led to a doctorate and professional qualification which is highly sought after. I've been in well paid work since. As a family you need to make family decisions about money/childcare/retraining that are good for the family and him. Fwiw I did a doctorate, worked pt and had the kids 3 days a week (lots of evening and weekend study), so an Ma and part time work should be manageable?

This has nothing to do with gender and yes the responses would be the same.

It's fine for one to stay home if both agree. It's not fine to force it on your partner and refuse to work and demand they financially support you.

The ops husband is just looking at this as a way of not working.

Op. Does he even know what the entrance requirements are and the timings? Has he looked at all the options in terms of differing courses, from multiple years to evening classes, has he looked at the financial packages available and the implications? Presented all the options to you and discussed them?

Because if not, and I suspect not, it seems like he's just come up with the idea to present as a way of telling you he won't be getting a job and he wants you to pay for him, he's not even done proper research.

Your call if you do decide to keep supporting him. i couldn't be with someone who refused to earn and financially contribute as a functioning adult to their own kids and home. And tried to emotionally blackmail me into supporting them. But everyone is different. Personally I'd resent it hugely. He'd get a job or he'd get to fuck.

Rather than say no, you won't support him, sit down and work out your long term finances and the money he will need to bring in for it to be feasible. Include HIS pension, savings for kids university, a new car every five years, a family holiday. Get down to the actual costs of the course, will he need transport
Whatever you do, don't dismiss it out of hand as he will always use that against you. It may well be that he won't be accepted or he doesn't get his portfolio sorted.

The fact that he has never had a steady job and slags off shelf stacking shows he doesn't want to work.

He really should have gone back to work when youngest started school. That's what I'm waiting for as the logistics right now are just not possible. Even if I can't get back into teaching I will home tutor and have done on and off while being a SAHM. By September next year I will not call myself this, if I'm still at home I'll b a housewife or a homemaker.

There's no inherent value in working for the sake of working, of course. It's not unreasonable to resent the idea of getting a shitty, low-paid, essentially pointless job (I am hugely in favour of universal basic income, not least because so many jobs are pointless as well as poorly paid and tiresome). A job such as cold-calling people to ask them about changing their energy supplier contributes fuck all to the good of society, for instance. There's also the fact that there are fewer jobs than able-bodied adults looking for employment. So 'get a job' is not always an easy solution.

However, this man seems to feel very entitled to leech off OP in return for a pretty minimal contribution to the family - and now he wants money spent on his daydreams, while reducing his contribution to family life even further. If he's a musician with any skills at all, he could consider giving music lessons as a private tutor; if he has writing skills he could start by looking into ways of making money by writing (it is hard but there;s stuff like sponsored blogging and content creation that brings in a llittle bit of money if you're quick, competent and reliable).

Ive only read page 1. Paying for the masters is one thing. Is he up for working to assignment deadlines whilst the kids are in school?

I'd be saying the same thing to a woman. Since there clearly is a need for extra income, any course which is unlikely to lead to employment is pure self-indulgence.

This, in a nutshell.

He is being completely unreasonable.

I was thinking he sounds really unreasonable until you mentioned the MS right at the end of the post. He may be trying to plan out a future career that is not too demanding physically knowing that he has a progressive disease or as other have said he may be more worried abut his illness than he lets on.

Tell him to look into ghostwriting. I do it as a side job (I'm an editor by trade) and make an extra €2k a month from it. I have no qualifications -- I'm just a good writer and I've worked my way up. This way he can get paid to do the thing he's passionate about, not have to go out to work, contribute to the household, and fund his own education. If he won't even consider something like that then really the problem might be he just doesn't want to work.

Also FYI the majority of us self-publish our own writing directly on Amazon these days and earn an average of five times what you can get from a publishing deal. There really is no excuse not to earn money with writing now. It's incredibly easy. If he wants to be a writer, great -- he can have an immediate income with it.

I would expect someone of either gender if the family could do with the money to explore work options once the children are all at school and include stacking shelves as an option. I would also expect anyone wanting to go to a degree to consider family finances not just the I want.

I couldn't agree to this not because it's an inherently bad idea (although there are masters degrees that would lead to a much more concrete / lucrative career path) but because he seems flakey, lacking in drive and ability to follow things through.

So even if he did the degree it sounds like he might quit half way through (wasting money with nothing to show for it) or not doing anything with the degree once done.

I would be insisting on him completing the book he's meant to be writing first, in a reasonable time frame to really see if he's cut out for it and how much inherent talent he has, finding a way of at least part funding it (doesn't have to be shelf stacking, as pp have suggested there are roles he could pursue if he has a talent for writing). I'd also suggest starting with an evening class, see if he commits to that and go from there.

I am doing a masters degree part time and trust me it takes up a lot of time. If he was to do this it would not only drain financial resources but also take up at least 20 hours a week of time meaning you'd be picking up more slack with the household.

I was thinking he sounds really unreasonable until you mentioned the MS right at the end of the post. He may be trying to plan out a future career that is not too demanding physically knowing that he has a progressive disease or as other have said he may be more worried abut his illness than he lets on.

I agree. Even if he hasn't had a relapse for three years it doesn't mean his MS isn't progressing. Also, it is likely that he will not have much energy as someone without MS and this will make the prospect of a job quite daunting.

What does he propose to do once he has the MA? Write the book he hasn't finished in years?

Here’s the mn rub.
sahd=man.so he’s a lazy chancer living off your salary.he should get job.pronto
sahm=woman.selfless,raising dc.how dare sahm be imposed upon or made a wage slave

You’ll get scant sensible response because of the gender.hes a man. Consciously and unconsciously most on mn have a bias. When women give up careeer It’s okay,in fact heroic martyr who devotes to family blah blah

I’m telling you if you were to change sahd to sahm you’d get different response

• a man would be reproached and told to fund the MA for a woman.just because
• you’d be told immediately on return from work you cook/wash/sort kids sahm isn’t domestic slave

Because many sahm have given up career,they advise others to do same.theyre over invested in portraying sahm/sahd as hardest job in world...same as a job. Blah blah

He won’t do a “shitty” job? How insulting to the thousands of people that do those essential menial jobs (would anyone get groceries if there weren’t shelf stackers?), would you want filthy tables in a Coffee shop?

Yes I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t necessarily want to do a menial job and I don’t imagine it is anyones’ life long aspiration, but you do what you need to to earn money and provide for your household.

He is taking the mick. Nothing to say he can’t do his masters in creative writing, but to expect you’ll be paying for it all, he is daydreaming.

His habit of it seeing things through is concerning also, for him (and indeed you) to pour all that money in to an MA for it to come to nothing?

maybe it is literally finishing things he struggles with

I know you were using this to highlight a point about her dh being able to get on a masters course. However I think this is why op is struggling with his current desire. He abandoned a degree when it was within spitting distance, has had several careers and false starts and this may well be another one and very costly to boot.

but to expect you’ll be paying for it all, he is daydreaming.

That's one thing OP really can stop worrying about. There are government student loans for (first) masters degrees now. So the potential 'cost' is only lost earnings.

I have to agree that generally on MN you would get a different response if genders were reversed. One factor is that even the best SAHD rarely ever does as much as an average SAHM, especially as the planning and mental load is concerned.

But personally I always feel a bit when you read threads asking what exactly does a SAHM of school aged children do, and the replies are in the lines of 'Whatever I want! I have some hobbies, go for walks, meet friends for coffee'. I always wonder if their husbands, being solely responsible for the income, are indeed so totally happy with this situation. I would not be.

But interestingly, some years ago my DH had a similar idea. He had quit his job to be a SAHD with our first. But then suggested that we should also have a full time nanny so he can concentrate on his writing. And I should be supportive. I also have a hobby, teaching certain classes, that brings in a bit of money as well. Not enough to live on. I asked what he would do if I also wanted to quit my job and do this hobby for a living. As he didn't have an answer, we compromised on part-time child care and he took a creative writing course. Unsurprisingly, this didn't lead anywhere.