What are my legal rights here? And WIBU?

[DidIDoTheWrongThing]

I live in a block of flats, six in total.

The top floor flat dweller has continuously left the pram she no longer uses (baby is now 3yo) in the ground floor communal corridor for nearly a year.

It is a narrow corridor, and to get past the pram you have to manoeuvre yourself around it. You can’t just walk straight past it. It was a major fire hazard and more than one person has fallen over it trying to get past.

Everyone in the building has complained about it but she hasn’t paid the slightest bit of notice.

I got fed up after the nth polite but firm email requesting its removal and informed her that unless she moved it by X date, I would remove the pram.

X date came and went, pram was still there. So I took the pram and put it in the garden.

This finally got a response. She went ballistic at me and claimed that it had been stolen by the time she went to collect it.

She is now demanding I pay for the pram and is threatening me with the police and legal action.

Was I being unreasonable and does anyone know what my legal position is on this?

A lot of conflicting information here. I know your pain. I am also a share of freehold with 6 flats. Although this isn’t me 😂
I would be pissed off too. You are a director of your freehold but only all 6 flats can enforce the lease. Leases are also quite vague depending on when they were written so open to a lot of interpretation. Unfortunately you alone as one freeholder cannot enforce the lease. The management company you hire should have been more active in this, that’s what you pay them for. The lease can usually be enforced with a majority vote.
Prams can cost well over £1000 although hers may have been a few hundred. If it wasn’t a foldable pram then it’s likely over £500. Although I agree with you, it wasn’t your property to move/remove so you are liable for a replacement. But that will also be costly for her as she will need to employ a solicitor to deal with this issue. You can wait and see how far she takes it but it is very likely she has a strong case against you.

Tell her to go on speak to the police if she threatens you. See where that leads. Nowhere.

She's lazy and/or not bothered. She didn't/ couldn't get her act together to move the pram in the first place. She's pissed off now " and going to call the police". Yeah whatever.

Police would be interested for about 2 mins. Much more interested in fire hazards etc

You've tried to follow all the correct procedures, emailing and contacting whoever. Just forget it now. It isn't going anywhere. Don't create more of a who ha than necessary.

" But I moved it so my disabled friend could get past?! It's gone? Oh dear?"

it is very likely she has a strong case against you
It's extremely unlikely, her pram shouldn't have been there in the first place so the fact that it's been moved is irrelevant. She also would have to have logged it stolen with the police, and since police haven't been there collecting statements it seems very unlikely that she has even done that.

You did not steal it. You removed something unsecured from a communal area to another communal area. Your intent was communicated with her repeatedly over a period of time.

The burden is on her to PROVE you stole the pram rather than merely moved it and your intention was to steal the pram not improve safety in the building. If you stole the pram, then how did you or an associate of yours intend to materially benefit from stealing the pram, and how does she prove this?

What other options for the removal of the pram did she offer you?

Given your correspondence, I'd like to wish her good luck pursing her defamatory claim.

@queenunicorn it may not have happened. That’s why I said wait and see. I’ve been in the same situation as OP and trust me she will be liable

She had clearly abandoned the item in a communal area. I doubt she has a leg to stand on. I personally would have justremoved the pram without telling her as she is obv. a complete cockwomble.

The communal area is owned by all 6 flats

One of my tenants did this, although what she had left in the foyer wasn’t blocking any exits. The building’s management company told me that if she didn’t move it within a specified time, I would be billed for the cost of its removal and disposal. I informed her that if I got charged, it would come out of her deposit, and she then moved it.

You could argue that the leaseholders had the right, not just to move it, but to dispose of it, and charge her the cost of doing so.

I would call her bluff. It's not theft, as others have said, the police won't be interested. I think she will have to fund any case herself, she won't be entitled to Legal Aid AFAIK. And if she couldn't be bothered to actually move the damn thing, I don't think she will be taking you to small claims, or instructing a solicitor any time soon.

If you want some free advice contact the leasehold advisory service. You need to book an appointment, which is usually around a week.

In my experience, inconsiderate, ignorant people always assume the law is on their side and i doubt very much that she has any more idea of the legal implications than you do. Keep any comunications you have had with her regarding your intentions, which it sounds as if you made crystal clear, and inform her that you do not intend to pay her a penny. Do not budge on this. She‘s probably trying it on, to see if she can get something out of you by making threats. Be polite and calm in any dealings with her but avoid her if possible. If she does complain to the police, you can show that she was in breach of the tenancy agreement and was given fair notice of your intention to remov3 the pram if she didn‘t. I doubt if either the police or the LL would be the slightest but interested.

The fact that the pram was partially blocking the fire exit is crucial (think Grenfell)

Presumably the garden is also a communal area so you have only moved it from inside to outside, it was still on the property. It could just have easily been “stolen” from the inside communal area as from the garden.

Play her at her own game and ignore her...

Would the pram have been as objectionable if she WAS still using it for children?

First, no criminal act so far as I can see. Can't see police being interested and if they are, I can't see it going any where. You had no intention to permanently deprive, so not theft. If it was taken by a third party, not your problem. It could just as easily have been taken from the communal area (albeit less risk as presumably some type of security in place).

Possibly, it was a little foolhardy to move it, but I share your pain. And you gave her ample warning. I think it would be hard to attach liability to you - was it reasonably foreseeable it would get nicked? Was it nicked? You only have her word for it, and quite arguable it is her own silly fault for leaving it there despite repeated warnings not to. So I'd ignore, I can't honestly see her being able to successfully attach liability to you (although she may argue that you assumed a duty as baillee by removing her pram). IMHO it's a try on. And I would ignore it.

With hindsight, it would have been better to have concentrated your efforts through the management company. Check the terms of your lease - there is usually an obligation on the part of the management company/freeholder to enforce the terms of covenants - such as not to store random crap in the communal areas. Unfortunately, not all management companies are good at doing their job - but that would be the best course of action IMHO.

If the pram was blocking exit or access to services then it may well be a health and safety issue - worth flagging with the management company and telling them to put their insurers on notice (which should get their interest). Likewise, if it would constitute a trip hazard (the possibility of them being liable for personal injury to visitors should get their attention).

Good luck. Bear in mind too, that you are going to have to continue to live with the pram neighbour for the foreseeable future, so it may be worth tempering your approach as sometimes being legally in the right isn't much of a consolation if you get locked in a neighbour dispute.

Perhaps it would have been better if said pram had vanished shortly after you had (in a concerned manner) warned her of malingering vagrants tampering with stuff in the communal areas.....

Would the pram have been as objectionable if she WAS still using it for children?

Yes it would TBH. The point is that it was a fire hazard. Having a baby doesn’t trump the safety of the rest of the building.

*a fire hazard as well as a pain in the neck to manoeuvre around on a daily basis.

Your not being unreasonable however police may look at this as theft initially..
Removing something from a communal area is theft.. it is exactly the same as if someone stole plant pots from your front garden. It is classed as theft.
It will all depend what you wrote in that email, if you just said that you will remove it then this could be argued that you are permanently depriving them of the item, as you have not said where you will be moving it too or if they will get it back.. the wording simply says that you will remove it therefore depriving them of it as by emailing you have also acknowledged it’s their property and not abandoned.
The problem is that fact the pushchair is now missing..and you having admitted to removing it.. and there is no other proof that someone else took it.
Is there any cctv? As this could help you out should it be investigated.
Yes management company’s lease holders can remove property from communal areas however they have to keep it and they have to prove they have the authority to do this.
If I was you I would try and find cctv and just wait and see if police investigate.

Nope, not theft. No intention to permanently deprive.

And if they have the resources to investigate it, I am moving to where you live to benefit from the vastly increased police numbers.

Report her to the police for harrassment and tell the landlord. This may prompt him not to renew her tenancy.

Spongebobjudgeypants.. like I said depends on wording.. if she said moving it that’s fine. But telling someone they are going to remove their property in other words is saying I am taking your property.
Moving and removing have different meanings, removing means Permanently depriving her of it. It’s just another way of saying it. Even though this lady intention wasn’t permanently depriving her of it her wording of the email doesn’t help prove this.
However it’s a grey area as she did say she moved it to a garden. The trouble is unless she can prove this is exactly what she did it can be argued she took the item.
And for your info police will have a duty to investigate all reports if they believe a crime as been committed.
This will be down to the officer whether they deem that a crime has taken place. Like I said grey area.

@Wiseowl

As I said in a op, I emailed her to say that the pram was in the garden and that I had moved it to make access for my disabled friend.

You threatened to remove it - but there is no proof you did. I’d say someone else did it and saved you the bother.it will go nowhere without proof