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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

What are my legal rights here? And WIBU?

159 replies

DidIDoTheWrongThing · 01/01/2018 02:08

I live in a block of flats, six in total.

The top floor flat dweller has continuously left the pram she no longer uses (baby is now 3yo) in the ground floor communal corridor for nearly a year.

It is a narrow corridor, and to get past the pram you have to manoeuvre yourself around it. You can’t just walk straight past it. It was a major fire hazard and more than one person has fallen over it trying to get past.

Everyone in the building has complained about it but she hasn’t paid the slightest bit of notice.

I got fed up after the nth polite but firm email requesting its removal and informed her that unless she moved it by X date, I would remove the pram.

X date came and went, pram was still there. So I took the pram and put it in the garden.

This finally got a response. She went ballistic at me and claimed that it had been stolen by the time she went to collect it.

She is now demanding I pay for the pram and is threatening me with the police and legal action.

Was I being unreasonable and does anyone know what my legal position is on this?

OP posts:
Blonde0nBlonde · 01/01/2018 16:59

Just tell her you didn’t move it. Simple. I would have skipped it long before now

NotDavidTennant · 01/01/2018 17:02

The police might question you (if it's a slow day) but they are not going to waste their time pursuing you for the theft of a low value item when it's ambiguous that you are even legally culpable.

Possibly she could try taking you to the small claims court, but you would have the opportunity to defend yourself and it's not clear you would be found liable. I suspect though that if she's the kind of person that can't be bothered to move a pram for a year, then she's not going to be bothered to go through the process of taking you to court either.

The thing I'd be more concerned with is what kind of aggro she might put your way if you don't cooperate. Is she the kind of person who is likely to harass you?

Beltane18 · 01/01/2018 17:05

hi OP
i am not a lawyer but I am quite sure she has no grounds to sue you for theft or whatever.

we had the fire brigade here for general safety checks - it's a large block and there was a cigarette fire in the summer - they were really nice.

The way it happens here, you contact the local fire office, they fix a time and they said "if we don't appear it's because we've been called on an emergency" which is fair dos.

Anyway, they didn't find anything that needed to be moved but it strikes me that if you have proof, or if the lady leaves it there again, they will certainly be able to knock on her door and tell her it's a fire hazard which might help? uniformed fire officers explaining their concerns? They issued us a follow up letter to confirm their visit and the advice given, so they could issue a letter to the management company saying what a hazard the pram is in the common parts.

she's just being bone idle isn't she? I take it she's never had the joy of running through a smoke filled corridor herself? Idiot.

GinnyBaker · 01/01/2018 17:07

I'd be a bit careful here....so not reply at all unless it got to the point where it got legal and then pay for a solicitor to reply rather than guessing and leaving yourself open.

We had a slightly different situation in that when we bought our house, the idiot we bought from refused to hand the keys in after he had received payment and announced he wasn't moving out after all and we'd have to evict him.

Even in this situation after eviction, we were legally responsible for safeguarding all his posessions and liable for any loss or damage to them.

I was gobsmacked at how much protection the court afforded his possessions despite the fact that he was completely in the wrong.

AlessandroVasectomi · 01/01/2018 17:07

So you do the decent thing and replace her pram, with another of similar age and in similar condition. What will she do? My guess is that she’ll leave it precisely where the original one was left, so you’ll be back to square one!

wanderlust99 · 01/01/2018 17:08

Sympathies OP. We lived in a 1st floor flat and the family in the ground floor did carboot sales and used to bring all of his boot contents and leave them in the communal hallways. At any one time there could be 5 prams, 3 hoovers, tricyles/bubblecars, boxes of random stuff all stacked up. It was so dangerous but they couldn't see the problem. What was worse was that it was stacked up against the electric cupboard so if you needed to top up you had to move everything.

Anyway I think it would be highly unlikely of her to spend the money taking you to small claims over a buggy that has been lying in a hallway for over a year. She has had loads of warnings about it so I doubt the police would do anything more than listen to your side of the story.

Original poster
DidIDoTheWrongThing · 01/01/2018 17:09

The thing I'd be more concerned with is what kind of aggro she might put your way if you don't cooperate. Is she the kind of person who is likely to harass you?

Yes, this is my main concern.

I’m not sure if she’ll continue to harass me once it becomes clear I’m not going to bite.

I suspect her initial rage was more to do with the fact I moved her stuff than that she’s even hugely bothered about a worn out old pram.

She’s not generally unpleasant to be fair.

OP posts:
Sparklesocks · 01/01/2018 17:10

@FancyThatFenceEdge

I rent too, am I dumb bitch? You can pull together my house deposit costs if you like...

SirGawain · 01/01/2018 17:16

In your place I would write a bogus preaction letter from a solicitor claiming that you tripped over it a injured yourself and that you will be taking her to court for damages.
This is bad advice. OPs reasonable case will not be helped in any subsequent legal action if she has lied about the true state of affairs.

lunar1 · 01/01/2018 17:16

If she's too lazy to move a prom for o ear a year she is probably too lazy to bother calling the police over this.

TheCraicDealer · 01/01/2018 17:27

Yeah I actually think it's illegal to pretend to be a solicitor so maybe don't do that.

I'd probably ignore and then if she raises it again say, "I'm giving this the same attention you gave the repeated warnings from both the managing company and myself with regards to the position of the pram and hazard it created. If you want to highlight the fact you ignored that correspondence then, by all means, contact your solicitor".

Worst comes to the worst she can bring you to small claims court and you'll have to pay for replacement of the pram. And as she's only entitled to an indemnity settlement, you'll end up paying whatever that style of pram is going for on eBay or gumtree anyway. The system is designed for people to represent themselves so whilst if you were found liable you'd have to pay costs for her application, judgements don't make allowances for solicitors' costs in most cases.

ButchyRestingFace · 01/01/2018 17:30

Considering the dumb bitch is renting, I doubt she has the financial means to take legal action - whatever the blue-fuck that means.

Hmm

Your mistake was to tell her, OP. I do hope she doesn’t live directly above you.

BoomBoomsCousin · 01/01/2018 17:34

”I take your point. Technically speaking though, I, and five other directors, instruct the management company who just do the admin”

If your communication to her that you remove her buggy was done in your role as “Didl, Director of Flats’ Board” you’re probably covered by whatever authority is granted to the board (and so the management company as their proxy), but if you communicated with her as “Didl from flat A” that may not cover you. There may also be a form of words or certain requirements in asking her to move her property that you would need to stick to in acting as the Board for your request to relieve you of responsibility for any loss caused by your actions. The law can be tricky on things like this, that’s why you need a qualified solicitor to find out if there are actually any liabilities from your actions, not a forum of interested and helpful, but non-expert vipers Grin

For what it’s worth I highly doubt she’ll do anything formal about the pram, and she was being hugely unreasonable throughout the entire thing. But she may be a worse neighbour going forward. Presumably her landlord is one of the other directors? Could you shore up relationships between directors at all, so it’s easier to put pressure on residents to be good nieghbours in the future?

FancyThatFenceEdge · 01/01/2018 17:39

@Sparklesocks - are you planning to sue anyone for the "theft" of a pushchair as per the OP's case?

The answer lies therein. That statement was made SOLELY to the woman who is pseudo-threatening the OP, not anyone else - renting or otherwise.

Quite why you've somehow made it about you is odd. Xmas Biscuit

I'll say no more on this subject.

Gladrag · 01/01/2018 17:59

I'm not a legal expert, but I can't see you have done anything wrong here. It's not theft and moving things is not a crime. She could try to claim negligence which would mean pursuing you in the civil courts. The worst they could do is put her back into the position she enjoyed before the incident, i.e. order you to pay the value of the pram or replace with a similar item. A civil court cannot fine you.

If she's threatening to report you to the police, I would pre-empt her by speaking to the local police station or contact the non-emergency number for advice.

bunnyrabbit93 · 01/01/2018 18:03

Look up the legal definition of theft. You have not committed it. You told her you are moving the push chair. As long as she knows where it has been put. Let her call the police give your statement and it will be over

burnoutbabe · 01/01/2018 18:14

Also, the owner of her flat is also breaking their lease if they (or their tennants) allow items to be left in the communal area.

So you can tell them that you will be asking them to cover the costs of storage/removal in future for HIS tennant. I imagine he will be keen to move her on (in a legal way of course) if its going to cost him.

Original poster
DidIDoTheWrongThing · 01/01/2018 18:21

That’s a good point burnoutbabe.

I was actually quite annoyed with him for not being more proactive in getting his tenant to move the pram. But I suppose since he doesn’t have to live there he couldn’t care less.

OP posts:
3luckystars · 01/01/2018 18:26

I think your mistake was telling her. No good was going to come of that.

I hope ye sort it out anyway. Good luck.

Original poster
DidIDoTheWrongThing · 01/01/2018 18:27

I think your mistake was telling her. No good was going to come of that.

It appears so.

I was trying to be reasonable in letting her know where the pram was. But it seems no good deed goes unpunished.

OP posts:
GaryP01 · 02/01/2018 17:30

You didn't steal it. You moved it from one part of the property to another, therefore the police would not be interested as it is a civil matter and not a criminal one.

Personally I cannot see a County Court Judge making a Judgement against you considering it was a fire hazard. Also it would only be for the cost of a second hand pram if they did and she could be bothered or afford to pay the legal fees etc.

Stolenchoccies · 02/01/2018 17:35

If she was that worried about the pram surely it should ave been kept inside

OurMiracle1106 · 02/01/2018 17:48

Even if she was to win in a civil court under small claims you would only be required to replace as like for like, which would of course be a second hand buggy. I’d also be tempted to write a notice or get management company to do it stating any items left in communal areas may be removed without notice if they breach health and safety.

MontyPants · 02/01/2018 17:55

I'm not sure what she intends on reporting about you to the police. You didn't steal it. There is no theft offence by you, because you didn't intentionally and permanently deprive her of it. If it has been stolen by someone else, that's not your problem. I would have moved it too. Personally I would just ignore her now.

QueenUnicorn · 02/01/2018 17:57

Buggy was abandoned and blocking your entry. Nothing she can do about it now.
If someone left something blocking the way into my house it would never have lasted as long.
Her threats are empty, I wouldn't worry at all.