Should I change DD to a different school?

[eleanorsmom]

DD3 is 8 years old and in the same school where DD1 completed, DD2 is in Year 8, and DS is in Year 6. It’s a wonderful school with many hands-on projects, good attention to children’s social emotional development, integrated curriculum, etc. I work in a different part of the school that does teacher training using the school’s philosophy and model. DH is on the governance committee.

DD3 is not perfect but she is the last child I expected to have difficulty at school. She is very social with many friends. She does well in school with no academic difficulties. Her reports have always been very good with a few areas to work on (like being more flexible in group work - she can sometimes have an idea she really gets attached to and has trouble letting it go).

DD3 has a teacher this year who is notoriously difficult for some children. I thought the problem was usually with wiggly boys. DD has all of her best friends in the class so she was looking forward to the year. DD2 had the teacher and she didn’t have any problems. So I didn’t think much of it when DD3 was assigned to the class.

The teacher has been at the school for at least 20 years and she makes curriculum interesting (they learn about the Silk Road with many integrated art, science and writing projects, field trips, etc). However, her relationships with children are poor. In conferences, she is not able to describe individual children’s learning styles or personalities at all, let alone how she works with them. (Instead, she describes the curriculum and what children need to do better, with the same advice for every child). In class, she continually tells children their work is not good enough and is randomly punitive in small ways. A small handful of parents interpret her style as high standards and they like it. A bunch of others figure there is good along with bad. Every year there are a couple of kids who really have a hard time with her, and every couple of years a kid is devastated and ends up leaving the school. (There’s a long history of poor leadership in that part of the school, the kids who leave were often wobbly in the first place, and the parents who have really gone after the teacher have done it in an obnoxious way, so the teacher is still there year after year, despite having a long and wide reputation).

Two of DD3’s friends had a really hard time with the teacher from the beginning of the year. DD3 has had a low level of mild complaining, which is unusual for her, but I thought she might be picking up on her friends’ complaining.

At the end of October I noticed there was an area near DD3’s hairline where the hair was prickly, like it had come out a few weeks before. She said her hair tie got pulled out in gym class, which seemed unlikely, but I let it go. Throughout November, I occasionally saw her rubbing a strand of hair across her lips and I told her to stop “flossing” with it. Then in early December I put her hair into ponytails one morning and all of a sudden I realized that she had a large area that was missing hair and that she had been pulling it out. I've got photos that pinpoint the time as starting around mid October (normal hairline) and drastically changing by early December.

I met with the school leadership (and eventually the teacher - I was initially worried that the problem would be worse if she felt cornered so I didn’t meet with her right away). I had DD3 meet several times with a psychologist who used to work at the school and knows the teacher. I told the psychologist that I was open to hearing that the home life was the cause of the problem, or a big part of it. I took DD3 to the doctor to make sure it wasn’t alopecia or thyroid issues or whatever.

I asked DD3 “what’s hard about being in the teacher’s class?” And she gave me a long, long list that is well summarized by her first sentence: “she blames kids for acting like normal kids.” I’ve seen the teacher casually demean children. For example, during drop off one morning: “Evan, could you come do a task for me? I need papers filed. I see that you aren’t doing your reading anyway.” (The child was momentarily daydreaming, not bothering anyone). That kind of comment doesn’t bother many kids but it seems to really bother DD3, even when it’s not aimed at her.

I noticed the problem Dec 11. Here is where we are now:
DD3 has stopped pulling her hair. She has fingernail polish that she chips instead, and her hair is in cornrow braids (which she likes), so the habit part seems to have broken. The school is monitoring when she chips her nails so we can tell when she’s anxious (she never does it at home).
The psychologist lays the blame for DD3’s anxiety squarely with the teacher. DD3’s need to be good enough and to have a positive relationship with her teacher is at odds with the teacher’s constantly telling kids they are not good enough.
We are of course reducing stress anywhere we can, so we are making changes at home, but there isn’t much to work on.
We are talking to DD3 (and the other kids, as a family) about stress being normal and that everyone needs to have good ways to manage it.
The school leadership acknowledges the problem and is trying to get the teacher to change. The teacher wants to change but really does not understand what she is doing wrong. There is a good coach working with the teacher (someone I like and trust), going in to give the teacher feedback, and they are doing lightening up things like dance party and reading silly stories in the classroom.
DD3 has had some massive blowups with her friends last week (the week after we made this discovery). We think that she is finally letting her emotions out rather than internalizing them. Which is better than pulling her hair, but she has missed a couple of hours of class processing the problems, and the teacher really doesn’t know how to handle social problems well. DD3 cried for half an hour one day before the coach overheard her and intervened (that has never happened in school before).
We have until Jan 8 before DD3 goes back to school. Our options are:
Leave DD3 in the class with as much support as possible (reminding her that the teacher has a problem with criticizing, continuing to see the school psychologist, etc)
Move DD3 to the other class (if it is an option - the school has gone back and forth on that. It would be hard to come up with a narrative for the parents and children about why it is happening. And other parents would want to move their kids)
Move DD3 to another school for the rest of the year, then return to this school (of course she could stay at the other school if she wants to). The other school is a school where I used to work, about 10 miles away. This would compromise my work but I can afford it professionally and financially, if needed.
Homeschool for the rest of the year. (I have a good friend who homeschools so she would join existing groups for writing and math and so on)
Considerations are:
We don’t want DD3 to think that she isn’t strong enough to deal with a difficult situation. We don’t want her to remember this year as the year she couldn’t handle it and had to run away.
On the other hand, we want DD3 to understand that she can leave an abusive relationship!
She won’t want to leave her friends who are all in the class.
On the other hand, she is really good at making new friends.
The teacher is getting help but we have to assume the school will lose focus and things will settle back more or less to the way they were, especially if DD3 stops pulling her hair and the dramatic clue that she is stressed and anxious is gone (i.e. she could still be very stressed and anxious, but without the hair pulling, we wouldn’t know. She keeps it all inside).
Even if we are giving DD3 support at home, the daily cutting of a mean teacher is hard for a kid to handle
If DD3 leaves the school and returns, it will be a story that follows her until the end of her time there (5 more years)
If DD3 changes classes, the other teacher will handle it well, but there will be all sorts of drama among the parents and the current teacher would make it awkward and difficult every time DD3 sees her in the hallway, at lunchtime, etc.

What would you do and AIBU to consider leaving the school?

StillWorkingOnACleverNN
So much better OP.

You're focusing on the school dealing with anything classroom related (which may/may not be the main issue) and you aren't getting involved with the soet of gossip which seems rife in your place of work. You've got help in place for your DD, which is absolutely needed. You're open to getting to the bottom of the issue (which may be the teacher but may not be) and crucially you're seeing how taking a step back from internal gossip allows you to have a more measured view on the situation.
This will hopefully mean you can get the best resolution for your DD.

Have to say OP, it is really nice to have someone who is receptive to advice on threads.

Your daughter is self harming (I have trichotillomania too, and self harm is what it is). If the doctor is telling you the situation that is causing this is the classroom environment, you have to get her out.

Out of interest, what does your DD want to do?

Sorry OP, just read the full thread, I had got lost with your change of username. I'm guessing then your dd has the teacher for all lessons?

Can you give us some examples of what she has done to your daughter that upsets her? Some specifics.

I would definitely tackle the friends "massive blowup" thing first. OP, you've not actually mentioned what that was about? You know what girls are like at this age, could be niggly arguments that have been progressing for months, then the big blowup. That could be nothing to do with the teacher at all. If you get to the bottom of that, then it's one more thing out of the equation.

Tabbymumz Grannytomine....you say you were seven and on your fifth teacher.? That's not far off the norm by me as they get a new teacher every year. So if they start at nursery in the school, that will be their first teacher, then one in reception, then a new one every year up to High School. Kids aren't you to gel with every teacher they have. No I said I was nearly 7, I was 7 when I moved to the 3rd school. I was just starting year 2 and on my second school and 5th teacher, so one teacher in reception, two in year 1 at 2 different schools, 2 in year 2. I actually coped with changes really well and the change to school 3 went fine. The teacher I had in year 2 terrified me, and lots of other children. I don't think a six year old who had previously been happy and doing well at school suddenly sobbing all day every day is just not gelling.

I would be very careful not to make hasty decisions about changing schools. You've said that your DD has lots of friends at the school, and her siblings are there, and you too. She could find a change very unsettling, at time when she's under stress already. The school is helping her through this so I would think you should stick it out, although changing classes sounds like a good move.

@NancyJoan We are talking to her about it on Tuesday. She's got two psychologist visits next week, and DH and I are meeting the psychologist, and we'll make the decision late next week. The school has wobbled on whether or not she would be allowed to switch classes so we can't count on that. The psychologist previously said that she thinks switching classes is the best idea so that might carry weight. I honestly don't know what DD will say. She really loves her friends in the class, but she has friends in the other class and makes friends easily. It will be interesting.

She had four massive blowups the week before the holiday break (the week after we started talking about it and she started seeing the psychologist). The blowups were with different sets of kids (totally six different kids) who are her friends. One problem was because she was holding the door in line and two girls behind her were supposed to take the door and pass it to the next person, but instead they walked through. DD was furious. Another was because there were groups of three walking to lunch and there was rearranging going on - DD and other kids agreed to the rearrangement and one child didn't, and DD made it a very big deal. Another was inability to agree on a storyline in a puppet show three children were creating. The psychologist said that it was probably a good thing that she was externalizing her feelings rather than internalizing them, but this has never happened at school before, nor at home. During one of the problems she cried for half an hour before the coach was available to help (the teacher told me this). So it's another part of the worry, that she will continue to have these big emotions. She could work with the psychologist on better ways to deal with the emotions, or it might be better to change the environment that's triggering them and see what happens, to give her breathing space to learn better ways to deal with whatever is causing her problems.

Also - I learned useful language from the psychologist - is this problem a pebble, a rock, or a boulder? Are you treating a pebble problem like a boulder problem?

How is she performing academically and socially in comparison with her peers? It strikes me that her age is when she may be becoming more aware of how she is learning or behaving and how others react to her. If she has any form of difficulty or struggles if her expectations are not met by others it is an age where small differences become more marked and girls particularly can pick up on this. Ime 8/9-12 can be tricky for girl friendships, even those long established, as maturity levels vary.

Is she seeing an educational psychologist or one focussing on mh?

@Rossigigi After this useful thread I'm trying not to focus on the teacher as much. Either DD stays and learns ways to manage her emotions or she leaves because we've decided that's better. But I did give poor examples before so here are a couple that are more illustrative. Maybe I'm so on edge that IABcompletelyU.

These are from DD's long list on the first morning when I asked "what's hard about being in the class?"

A child in the class sharpened some erasers. The teacher had all children sit in a circle and say what they had done to the classroom materials that was "bad" (DD's word). When it was DD's turn she said "pass" because she said she didn't do anything bad to the materials. The teacher said to the class "DD is not being brave. I need all of you to be brave so we can take care of classroom materails."

DD's words: She blames kids for doing things a normal kid should do, like not sitting still for 45 minutes, like not getting a science project perfect on your first try, like not answering hard questions in three minutes, for not answering a math question in two different ways. (me: "blames?") DD: she yells but quietly, a quiet yell.

DD's words: when you’re trying to explain a math equation, like a division problem, and she doesn’t understand why you do skip counting, and it makes sense but not to her, and you can skip count for a division problem, and you’ve worked really hard on it, but she doesn’t understand and you have to start all over on it.

Also, I asked when the teacher is kind and what DD likes about the class and there were many things. And I asked what is hard about home, and she gave some things to work on. But when the psychologist asks she identifies the teacher as the problem, and she has spontaneously said it's the teacher to her grandmother and to the pediatrician when we had her checked for alopecia. Perhaps I led her to that.

I may be interpreting a lot of the teacher's behavior through the lens of anger and helplessness. Like the comment to Evan. Maybe it's nothing, or maybe it's something that's hard to pin down. I suppose it doesn't really matter because something is causing DD stress and we're not going to be able to change the something, we can only get her out or help her manage better.

She's a MH psychologist. She used to be a school psychologist many years ago and is now in private practice seeing children and families about a range of issues, including dealing with divorce, gender dysmorphia, etc. She's well known and respected in our area and was recommended by several parents. DD doesn't have any learning issues and is in fact a strong student, especially in math (which is also true of her siblings, DH and me).

@LIZS This is one of my theories about what might be way, way underneath it all. The three older DCs are very strong students. DD3 is also a strong student but I wonder if she is starting to feel some pressure to keep up. I've worked pretty hard to give her space to be herself, whatever that is, but kids start to be much more alert at that age, as you have said. It hasn't come up with the psychologist or in any of our conversations with DD but I wonder. If the teacher is saying "not good enough" just when DD is wondering if she's good enough that might be at least part of it.

So you're certain that there's no bullying from other kids going on? I have to admit that the only times my ds broke down and cried was when he was being bullied by a teacher. DS was 7 and teacher was ripping his drawings up and binning them, saying they were rubbish! God, was I fuming. The teacher was suspended and then left altogether. DS very quickly bucked up again.Now that you've given more info OP, have to say I don't like this teacher's methods, seems belittling. What (if any) encouraging, positive, kind remarks does she make?

I get the feeling that she is under a microscope- all these people
looking at her and asking her questions and asking her to describe her feelings-parents and headteacher and grandparents and paediatricians and psychologists....
If I were you, OP I wouldn't examine the situation any more-I'd get the school to move her to the other class then just see wht happens between now and Easter. Give her a chance to breathe, away from the teacher, with a different group of children and with no more discussion.

DD doesn't appreciate the teachers teaching style.

I actually agree with DD

BUT .... life regularly throws us people we don't appreciate.

If DD is not being bullied by the teacher I think DD should learn to deal with people she doesn't appreciate or who don't understand her.

BertrandRussell I agree about the microscope. In part that's I made a timeline with the decision at the end of next week. At that point we'll have as much useful info we're going to have, and have had time to think and calmer emotions, and I will have to stop spinning my wheels and re-litigating decisions in my head and get on with whatever we're going to do. I do analyze situations exhaustively but once I've made a decision I am pretty good about going forward and making the best of it.

The school initially said she might move to the other class and then retracted right before the break. It may be that our choices are stay in the class or leave the school. I have been at the school in one way or another for 20+ years, on and off, and have never heard of a child moving classes (though that doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but if it has it's very uncommon). It's a private school and although you'd think that marching in and saying you won't stand for XYZ would work, in some ways there is less flexibility than state schools, because the parents can be very demanding and unreasonable, and the school has to set limits.

princessspparkle I think it depends on the degree of distress. It might not look like bullying to the teacher but it can to the child and this child is quite clearly struggling to cope. Adults can say it isn't bullying and that children have to cope but it doesn't mean that will work.

It was interesting you picked up on the 'blow out with friends' happened AFTER the psychologist visits started.

Do you think she feels like she's done something 'wrong' and this is why she has to speak to someone and her friends don't. So it's creating extra anxiety?

With the examples you've give with school. As an example:- Regarding her division and skipping steps. Did you explain that when she's older and she sits exams, she must write the steps down, because if she didn't she would not get a mark, even though her answer is right. So her teacher is only asking her to do it properly so that she can do it in the future.

I'm going to go against the grain here, and say, do you think all of the psychologist input could actually be hindering rather than helping? Could you not have a meeting with the teacher, ask your dd to write down examples, like you've given, and ask the teacher to talk through with your dd why she asks questions or makes demands in a certain way?

This is based on some experience. A long time ago when I was teaching, (I moved from children to adults), but we had a teacher that some children found 'scary'. One child in particular, wanted to move schools (no option of classes only one class in that year group). So the head arranged a meeting with the child, mum and dad, the teacher and him. It was this type of stuff that was talked about. The teacher thought she was asking perfectly valid questions, the child thought she was scary and hated her, mum and dad obviously sided with their child, and the head just wanted it to all go away! (If I'm being honest)

But when the teacher was able to say 'I asked you to do x because of x' or 'when we done this you actually done that' and so on. The teacher did say sorry to the child for upsetting them and making them feel like they did, they hadn't realised how their actions was impacting on one child, and to be honest it almost broke that teacher.

They were doing their job because they loved it, and to realise that a child wanted to change schools because of them devestated them, because in reality she was a lovely person.

DD3 has a teacher this year who is notoriously difficult for some children

"notoriously" - as in purely via hear say

In conferences, she is not able to describe individual children’s learning styles

learning styles are a myth, this teacher is obviously a lot more up to date than you are

the teacher is strict with high standards, I can't go through your entire post and answer all the little ways you critisise and belittle, but by all means move your child if you are going to snipe at the teacher all year. If she resigns the school will clearly lose an exceptional asset, and quite frankly, why should she stay and put up with people like you having a pop at her as and when they feel like it?

Rossigigi I think tone of voice is also part of it, sometimes you can ask something perfectly reasonable but in an aggressive or loud way that can intimidate a child.

I'd ask the school to move her to a different class and if that isn't possible, then pull her out. Do it before permanent damage is done to her self esteem.
I know that in life we meet people like this, but as an adult you can walk away, apply for different jobs, or confront them. She's a child it's not her job to fix the teacher, it's her job to be a child.

I find it very hard to believe the teacher is really to blame for all this, but the important thing is that your DD is very unhappy. You have the power to change that and I think you should.
if you are sure there will be a place available for her next year I would,take her out and home school her for now. It will reassure her that she matters and that her problems are being taken seriously by you. It will give you all a break and a chance to observe her more closely one on one. If it really is the teacher who is responsible here, it will be a wake up call to the school.

I also think it would be good for you and your DD to get some space from the school and the situation. It all sounds unethically over involved and intense.

Loonoonow I left the school where I was terrified of the teacher. I moved to a Catholic school, old style nuns with canes. They never scared me the way the scary teacher did. I don't know why so I don't expect anyone else to.

grannytomine you are right- tone of voice makes a massive difference. As they say 'it's not what you say, it's how you say it'