Should I change DD to a different school?

[eleanorsmom]

DD3 is 8 years old and in the same school where DD1 completed, DD2 is in Year 8, and DS is in Year 6. It’s a wonderful school with many hands-on projects, good attention to children’s social emotional development, integrated curriculum, etc. I work in a different part of the school that does teacher training using the school’s philosophy and model. DH is on the governance committee.

DD3 is not perfect but she is the last child I expected to have difficulty at school. She is very social with many friends. She does well in school with no academic difficulties. Her reports have always been very good with a few areas to work on (like being more flexible in group work - she can sometimes have an idea she really gets attached to and has trouble letting it go).

DD3 has a teacher this year who is notoriously difficult for some children. I thought the problem was usually with wiggly boys. DD has all of her best friends in the class so she was looking forward to the year. DD2 had the teacher and she didn’t have any problems. So I didn’t think much of it when DD3 was assigned to the class.

The teacher has been at the school for at least 20 years and she makes curriculum interesting (they learn about the Silk Road with many integrated art, science and writing projects, field trips, etc). However, her relationships with children are poor. In conferences, she is not able to describe individual children’s learning styles or personalities at all, let alone how she works with them. (Instead, she describes the curriculum and what children need to do better, with the same advice for every child). In class, she continually tells children their work is not good enough and is randomly punitive in small ways. A small handful of parents interpret her style as high standards and they like it. A bunch of others figure there is good along with bad. Every year there are a couple of kids who really have a hard time with her, and every couple of years a kid is devastated and ends up leaving the school. (There’s a long history of poor leadership in that part of the school, the kids who leave were often wobbly in the first place, and the parents who have really gone after the teacher have done it in an obnoxious way, so the teacher is still there year after year, despite having a long and wide reputation).

Two of DD3’s friends had a really hard time with the teacher from the beginning of the year. DD3 has had a low level of mild complaining, which is unusual for her, but I thought she might be picking up on her friends’ complaining.

At the end of October I noticed there was an area near DD3’s hairline where the hair was prickly, like it had come out a few weeks before. She said her hair tie got pulled out in gym class, which seemed unlikely, but I let it go. Throughout November, I occasionally saw her rubbing a strand of hair across her lips and I told her to stop “flossing” with it. Then in early December I put her hair into ponytails one morning and all of a sudden I realized that she had a large area that was missing hair and that she had been pulling it out. I've got photos that pinpoint the time as starting around mid October (normal hairline) and drastically changing by early December.

I met with the school leadership (and eventually the teacher - I was initially worried that the problem would be worse if she felt cornered so I didn’t meet with her right away). I had DD3 meet several times with a psychologist who used to work at the school and knows the teacher. I told the psychologist that I was open to hearing that the home life was the cause of the problem, or a big part of it. I took DD3 to the doctor to make sure it wasn’t alopecia or thyroid issues or whatever.

I asked DD3 “what’s hard about being in the teacher’s class?” And she gave me a long, long list that is well summarized by her first sentence: “she blames kids for acting like normal kids.” I’ve seen the teacher casually demean children. For example, during drop off one morning: “Evan, could you come do a task for me? I need papers filed. I see that you aren’t doing your reading anyway.” (The child was momentarily daydreaming, not bothering anyone). That kind of comment doesn’t bother many kids but it seems to really bother DD3, even when it’s not aimed at her.

I noticed the problem Dec 11. Here is where we are now:
DD3 has stopped pulling her hair. She has fingernail polish that she chips instead, and her hair is in cornrow braids (which she likes), so the habit part seems to have broken. The school is monitoring when she chips her nails so we can tell when she’s anxious (she never does it at home).
The psychologist lays the blame for DD3’s anxiety squarely with the teacher. DD3’s need to be good enough and to have a positive relationship with her teacher is at odds with the teacher’s constantly telling kids they are not good enough.
We are of course reducing stress anywhere we can, so we are making changes at home, but there isn’t much to work on.
We are talking to DD3 (and the other kids, as a family) about stress being normal and that everyone needs to have good ways to manage it.
The school leadership acknowledges the problem and is trying to get the teacher to change. The teacher wants to change but really does not understand what she is doing wrong. There is a good coach working with the teacher (someone I like and trust), going in to give the teacher feedback, and they are doing lightening up things like dance party and reading silly stories in the classroom.
DD3 has had some massive blowups with her friends last week (the week after we made this discovery). We think that she is finally letting her emotions out rather than internalizing them. Which is better than pulling her hair, but she has missed a couple of hours of class processing the problems, and the teacher really doesn’t know how to handle social problems well. DD3 cried for half an hour one day before the coach overheard her and intervened (that has never happened in school before).
We have until Jan 8 before DD3 goes back to school. Our options are:
Leave DD3 in the class with as much support as possible (reminding her that the teacher has a problem with criticizing, continuing to see the school psychologist, etc)
Move DD3 to the other class (if it is an option - the school has gone back and forth on that. It would be hard to come up with a narrative for the parents and children about why it is happening. And other parents would want to move their kids)
Move DD3 to another school for the rest of the year, then return to this school (of course she could stay at the other school if she wants to). The other school is a school where I used to work, about 10 miles away. This would compromise my work but I can afford it professionally and financially, if needed.
Homeschool for the rest of the year. (I have a good friend who homeschools so she would join existing groups for writing and math and so on)
Considerations are:
We don’t want DD3 to think that she isn’t strong enough to deal with a difficult situation. We don’t want her to remember this year as the year she couldn’t handle it and had to run away.
On the other hand, we want DD3 to understand that she can leave an abusive relationship!
She won’t want to leave her friends who are all in the class.
On the other hand, she is really good at making new friends.
The teacher is getting help but we have to assume the school will lose focus and things will settle back more or less to the way they were, especially if DD3 stops pulling her hair and the dramatic clue that she is stressed and anxious is gone (i.e. she could still be very stressed and anxious, but without the hair pulling, we wouldn’t know. She keeps it all inside).
Even if we are giving DD3 support at home, the daily cutting of a mean teacher is hard for a kid to handle
If DD3 leaves the school and returns, it will be a story that follows her until the end of her time there (5 more years)
If DD3 changes classes, the other teacher will handle it well, but there will be all sorts of drama among the parents and the current teacher would make it awkward and difficult every time DD3 sees her in the hallway, at lunchtime, etc.

What would you do and AIBU to consider leaving the school?

I would try moving classes. While the examples you've mentioned don't sound terrible, the effect on your daughter is serious enough that I wouldn't just leave it. Weighing up the risk of overreacting versus the risk of serious harm, I know where I would fall. And I think resilience is more likely to come from moving to a more happy environment than from enduring a miserable one.

Do you think she is having lots of issues with the friends rather than the teacher.
Think you are wrong to tell her how bad the teacher is.

@Fatbergs Sorry about that. I have a wriggly boy myself (who didn't have this teacher) and meant nothing negative. I meant to communicate that I didn't go into the class expecting a bad year, despite the teacher's reputation. I am not sure if the school will allow DD to move to the other class (there are only two per year). I can piece together how the teacher has stayed at the school without getting help (frequent leadership turnover in that section of the school, parents who have been obnoxious and very public in their feuds with the teacher which led the school to a defensive stance, etc).

You’re too invested in this teacher’s career, OP. Focus on your daughter, move her class if possible.

StillWorkingOnACleverNN
You can still have a friendly relationship with the coach, just you shpuld never have been made aware that coaching relationship existed.
As a coach in a school one of the central parts of it being helpful is that it is voluntary & a trusted relationship. So if i observed a coachee and it was a train wreck then that stays between me and the coachee. I don't go to the HOD or SLT and I certainly don't gossip about it.
(I've seen some schools try to make it compulsory and it doesn't work ad well as it becomes hoop jumping)

Who told you about the coaching relationship? Management/coach/gossip?

In terms of teaching style and relationships there are just different styles. If her lessons are engaging and helping children to make progress then she clearly does know the children in front of her.
One of my colleagues is so pastorally inclined with her groups that it's like she is their mentor. I'm a bit more middle ground and another colleague is very much 'strengths/weaknesses' and isn't as pastorally inclined. None are right/wrong. Just different.

Out of interest, are you in an independent school where lots of staff have their students attend? I only ask because that's when ypu tend to get lots of blurred boundaries.

Oh abd I do think you need to support your DC. I just don't think going after the teacher is the best way.

I’m surprised so many people are fine with this teacher causing anxiety with her methods in more than one child ever year to the extent that that some leave the school to escape it.
If this was a manager at work they’d be up for a disciplinary by now. Why do kids have less rights not to be intimidated?

My ds had problems with a school which resulted in a breakdown and move.
He had a problem with a teacher in current school - which was solved.

Don't want to sound as harsh as this will but is your DD a complete over analyser like you? Nothing you've said sounds at all like the teacher is doing anything wrong. I agree teaching styles don't suit all children but you've assigned a whole paragraphs meaning to every look and comment the teacher has made.

I'd focus on working with the psychologist as a first point of call and helping build your DD resilience.

And I say this as someone who usually says "move schools - best thing ever for my ds"

The teacher is an issue, I don’t dispute that, but their discipline should be confidential - the problem is that the OP is too close to this issue.

Your dd is seeing a child psychologist. She has already started to learn to express her emotions externally, which is good, IE the fight with her friends. I think there is lots more work to do with this person. You are having a discussion with them on Friday and will see what they say.

It may well be that the Psychologist is able to help your dd to reframe the situation. Better self esteem will do this naturally anyway. I would be governed by the conversation with them.

If you keep her in the class, i imagine it can go one of two ways. By the end of the scholastic year, your dd may have made some positive strides to self protection, which will stand her in good stead for secondary school. Or she won’t have coped terribly well but will have had a lot of support and gained a lot of new skills. You are there to ensure that if it gets too tough you can pull her out of school.

Personally, I would say keep her in the class and keep seeing the psychologist. She has an established friendship group, which is important at this time and sending her to a different school is also stressful. However, I’m not professionally qualified to make that judgment call.

Were you not seeing a psychologist, my opinion would be very different.

@Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar DD1 was in the UK during that year, DD2 was in this teacher's class but wasn't bothered by her, DS was in the other teacher's class. Between the four kids I've had 32 parent-years in schools and this is the first big problem. There have been teachers that have clicked (which is always wonderful), good teachers, and meh teachers. When I was teaching I was probably a click teacher for some kids, good for some kids, meh for some kids, but I don't think I ever caused children distress.

I wonder what the teacher thinks of you?

Personally I wouldn't move your DD as long as she is getting support for whatever m/h problems she has - could it be that she's getting anxious about something else at school as girls do have friendship issues a lot at that age.

I wouldn't describe the relationship as abusive or tell your child that the teacher has a problem.

My child had a teacher who had issues which I was deeply unhappy about (they were as much use as a chocolate teapot), I had meetings with the school to discuss it and I was putting all kinds of things in place to support my child during that year in an otherwise good school but my child had no idea that I had a problem with the teacher, all they knew was that I was being supportive and was listening to what they said at home and talking through possible ways of dealing with it.

@youarenotkiddingme She's not an over analyzer - DD1 and DS are, but not DD3. It might help her to become more of an analyzer, so she can understand what it is that is bothering her so much and decide whether it's worth being upset over.

I would seek to move classes, it really isn't the big deal you are making out- all this seeing the teacher in the corridor stuff.

You are obviously a very analytical person with a tendency to worry, and your dd may be similar. I have one dd like this and she does react more to what teachers say and take things to heart more than my other dd. She also gets anxious about being told off/getting into trouble/not completing work, in secondary as well as primary, but has learned to cope with it quite well. But she will always tend a bit towards worrying as that's who she is!

In this situation, your dd needs you to be the calm person steadying the ship, not amplify her fears. Have some confidence in her resilience- she's stopped pulling her hair out, she's talking honestly with the psychologist.

Just ask for a move to see if that helps, she can then keep her friendships.

I've worked with a teacher who was too stressful for primary age children and I changed from holding an "It's only a year, they'll cope," opinion, to a "Move them!" opinion. For a handful of children, it really is a bit too much.

^This. Move her class if possible, otherwise change schools. Your child is suffering. There is no evidence of other mental health issues. She's only 8. Children develop resilience in their own time. Some take longer than others. Staying in this class could haunt her for years. Moving would free her to develop at her own pace.

@brizzledrizzle How did you talk to your child about what was happening at school? There was a good suggestion earlier that I'm going to use but I'd be happy for others. The suggestion was to say "you don't like it when the teacher xxxxx" which is a neutral framing and then I can talk to her about what she can do in those situations.

I asked them what they didn't like and how it made them feel and we then discussed how to deal with those feelings. I explained that we couldn't change people who were difficult and so we needed to work out a way that we could work with those people to get the best out of having to work together.

I think you have to think of the long term. She will meet teachers at senior school who she doesn’t get along with and will stress her out. By having a psychologist she is learning to deal with her stress which is a good thing.
If she changes school it would be distruptive, she might loose her place at current school so maybe cannot get back.
I think a change of class is your best option. With her continuing to seek the help and support she needs. You sound like a great supportive parent and I’m sure she’ll be ok.

OP I was in your daughter's position when I was almost 7. Almost 60 years ago children weren't really listened to but when it got to the point that I cried all day, every day and couldn't do any work they started to take notice. Eventually they moved me to another class but I think they waited too long and although things improved I still cried alot and the new teacher started to get annoyed about it and the cycle was starting again. Nearly 60 years later I can still remember the black despair.

We moved alot when I was a child and this was my second school, I was happy at my first school and doing well, I moved to this school and was considered to be ahead of my class so moved up to the scary teacher's class, then moved again. So I was almost 7 and had my 5th teacher.

What saved me was my parents moving again, it was related to my dad's job, and of course I moved school again. Everyone expected problems, here I was now just 7 and starting my 3rd school and 6th teacher. I fitted in straight away, I still remember my teacher who was lovely and caring and within weeks I recovered.

It might not be the same for everyone but I think I would look at changing schools but at the very least changing class, I wouldn't worry about explaining anything to other parents, none of their business.

I hope your DD will be OK, I actually feel quite panicky thinking about it as it brings back such unhappy memories.

Everyone involved in this seems to be very close to what is going on, even the psychologist worked at the school and "knows" the teacher.

I would also question a psychologist that lays the problems for the issues straight at someone else's door.

@Mummyoflittledragon Thanks for this. My MIL thinks I'm bonkers for sending her to a psychologist. But the psychologist has been steadying for me, and DH, and DD. I'm lucky we found someone good so quickly.

Are you sure you aren't making a mountain out of a molehill here? I'd be concerned about pulling out her hair, but don't most girls chip at their nail varnish? What's she doing wearing nail varnish in the first place at school? Lots of kids in my child's class pulled the thread out if their sweatshirt cuff. I'm sure they didn't all need to rush off to a physologist. Just ask for her to move class. Problem solved.

You describe some fairly stressful things your child has gone through, especially the moves (school, place, country?). She seems to have dealt with all this well, if I wonder if the cumulative stress is coming out now?

I moved towns twice as a child and it was hugely stressful.

@grannytomine I'm so sorry to hear of your experience. I agree that children are much more listened to now, and I wish it had been that way for you.

So the problem only really became apparent in early December, and since then everyone has been very supportive- school working with teacher, psychologist working with DD, who is showing positive signs?

I absolutely wouldn’t move schools. You say she already moved countries at an early age - change is distressing. My very confident DC struggled with a move of schools & house in Year 2 and there’s no way I’d move for 2 terms with the extra stress of being able to decide to move back again at the end of the year. Friendship groups and shared experiences are just as important as learning styles at this age, I’d argue.

Grannytomine....you say you were seven and on your fifth teacher.? That's not far off the norm by me as they get a new teacher every year. So if they start at nursery in the school, that will be their first teacher, then one in reception, then a new one every year up to High School. Kids aren't you to gel with every teacher they have.