Should I change DD to a different school?

[eleanorsmom]

DD3 is 8 years old and in the same school where DD1 completed, DD2 is in Year 8, and DS is in Year 6. It’s a wonderful school with many hands-on projects, good attention to children’s social emotional development, integrated curriculum, etc. I work in a different part of the school that does teacher training using the school’s philosophy and model. DH is on the governance committee.

DD3 is not perfect but she is the last child I expected to have difficulty at school. She is very social with many friends. She does well in school with no academic difficulties. Her reports have always been very good with a few areas to work on (like being more flexible in group work - she can sometimes have an idea she really gets attached to and has trouble letting it go).

DD3 has a teacher this year who is notoriously difficult for some children. I thought the problem was usually with wiggly boys. DD has all of her best friends in the class so she was looking forward to the year. DD2 had the teacher and she didn’t have any problems. So I didn’t think much of it when DD3 was assigned to the class.

The teacher has been at the school for at least 20 years and she makes curriculum interesting (they learn about the Silk Road with many integrated art, science and writing projects, field trips, etc). However, her relationships with children are poor. In conferences, she is not able to describe individual children’s learning styles or personalities at all, let alone how she works with them. (Instead, she describes the curriculum and what children need to do better, with the same advice for every child). In class, she continually tells children their work is not good enough and is randomly punitive in small ways. A small handful of parents interpret her style as high standards and they like it. A bunch of others figure there is good along with bad. Every year there are a couple of kids who really have a hard time with her, and every couple of years a kid is devastated and ends up leaving the school. (There’s a long history of poor leadership in that part of the school, the kids who leave were often wobbly in the first place, and the parents who have really gone after the teacher have done it in an obnoxious way, so the teacher is still there year after year, despite having a long and wide reputation).

Two of DD3’s friends had a really hard time with the teacher from the beginning of the year. DD3 has had a low level of mild complaining, which is unusual for her, but I thought she might be picking up on her friends’ complaining.

At the end of October I noticed there was an area near DD3’s hairline where the hair was prickly, like it had come out a few weeks before. She said her hair tie got pulled out in gym class, which seemed unlikely, but I let it go. Throughout November, I occasionally saw her rubbing a strand of hair across her lips and I told her to stop “flossing” with it. Then in early December I put her hair into ponytails one morning and all of a sudden I realized that she had a large area that was missing hair and that she had been pulling it out. I've got photos that pinpoint the time as starting around mid October (normal hairline) and drastically changing by early December.

I met with the school leadership (and eventually the teacher - I was initially worried that the problem would be worse if she felt cornered so I didn’t meet with her right away). I had DD3 meet several times with a psychologist who used to work at the school and knows the teacher. I told the psychologist that I was open to hearing that the home life was the cause of the problem, or a big part of it. I took DD3 to the doctor to make sure it wasn’t alopecia or thyroid issues or whatever.

I asked DD3 “what’s hard about being in the teacher’s class?” And she gave me a long, long list that is well summarized by her first sentence: “she blames kids for acting like normal kids.” I’ve seen the teacher casually demean children. For example, during drop off one morning: “Evan, could you come do a task for me? I need papers filed. I see that you aren’t doing your reading anyway.” (The child was momentarily daydreaming, not bothering anyone). That kind of comment doesn’t bother many kids but it seems to really bother DD3, even when it’s not aimed at her.

I noticed the problem Dec 11. Here is where we are now:
DD3 has stopped pulling her hair. She has fingernail polish that she chips instead, and her hair is in cornrow braids (which she likes), so the habit part seems to have broken. The school is monitoring when she chips her nails so we can tell when she’s anxious (she never does it at home).
The psychologist lays the blame for DD3’s anxiety squarely with the teacher. DD3’s need to be good enough and to have a positive relationship with her teacher is at odds with the teacher’s constantly telling kids they are not good enough.
We are of course reducing stress anywhere we can, so we are making changes at home, but there isn’t much to work on.
We are talking to DD3 (and the other kids, as a family) about stress being normal and that everyone needs to have good ways to manage it.
The school leadership acknowledges the problem and is trying to get the teacher to change. The teacher wants to change but really does not understand what she is doing wrong. There is a good coach working with the teacher (someone I like and trust), going in to give the teacher feedback, and they are doing lightening up things like dance party and reading silly stories in the classroom.
DD3 has had some massive blowups with her friends last week (the week after we made this discovery). We think that she is finally letting her emotions out rather than internalizing them. Which is better than pulling her hair, but she has missed a couple of hours of class processing the problems, and the teacher really doesn’t know how to handle social problems well. DD3 cried for half an hour one day before the coach overheard her and intervened (that has never happened in school before).
We have until Jan 8 before DD3 goes back to school. Our options are:
Leave DD3 in the class with as much support as possible (reminding her that the teacher has a problem with criticizing, continuing to see the school psychologist, etc)
Move DD3 to the other class (if it is an option - the school has gone back and forth on that. It would be hard to come up with a narrative for the parents and children about why it is happening. And other parents would want to move their kids)
Move DD3 to another school for the rest of the year, then return to this school (of course she could stay at the other school if she wants to). The other school is a school where I used to work, about 10 miles away. This would compromise my work but I can afford it professionally and financially, if needed.
Homeschool for the rest of the year. (I have a good friend who homeschools so she would join existing groups for writing and math and so on)
Considerations are:
We don’t want DD3 to think that she isn’t strong enough to deal with a difficult situation. We don’t want her to remember this year as the year she couldn’t handle it and had to run away.
On the other hand, we want DD3 to understand that she can leave an abusive relationship!
She won’t want to leave her friends who are all in the class.
On the other hand, she is really good at making new friends.
The teacher is getting help but we have to assume the school will lose focus and things will settle back more or less to the way they were, especially if DD3 stops pulling her hair and the dramatic clue that she is stressed and anxious is gone (i.e. she could still be very stressed and anxious, but without the hair pulling, we wouldn’t know. She keeps it all inside).
Even if we are giving DD3 support at home, the daily cutting of a mean teacher is hard for a kid to handle
If DD3 leaves the school and returns, it will be a story that follows her until the end of her time there (5 more years)
If DD3 changes classes, the other teacher will handle it well, but there will be all sorts of drama among the parents and the current teacher would make it awkward and difficult every time DD3 sees her in the hallway, at lunchtime, etc.

What would you do and AIBU to consider leaving the school?

i am back at th starting point with the gut instinct to get her out

Maybe go with your gut. You know the school, you know the teacher and you obviously know your DD.

From the examples you give, the teacher doesn’t sound to have done anything so bad (observing that a child is not reading his book is a fact not a criticism imo) and expecting high standards is no bad thing . The fact is though your DD is stressed out and seems miserable in that environment. If you are stressed out and miserable then the chances are you will not be able to meet your full potential anyhow. She has had a term to settle and doesn’t seem to be doing so. I think I’d stop analysing the situation and move her.

It has nothing to do with your mil. Times have changed. Thank goodness. We used one with dd for about 5 months when she was yr1. She was great. Dd hated seeing her as she made her work. She helped the whole family as well. Because we inadvertently are part of the problem.

Granny
Your post resonated with me. Except I wasn’t moved, wasn’t helped. It messed up my entire education. The School I went to before, only for a term, gave me something I had never had before. And never had again. A sense of belonging. I was only 4/5.

I am tending to agree with those suggesting that it sounds like a personality clash as much as anything else.

I think that moving schools, even if just for two terms, may be a bit too drastic and disruptive, so I would push for the change of class, with a continuation of any support your DD may need for her mental health issues.

I don't think the teacher sounds to have done anything particularly wrong, although it can be difficult to judge without personal experience of them.

I think that children (and adults too) gel or click with some teaching styles and personalities and not with others.

Pengggwn there are some truly terrible teachers around. I had one. DO has one teacher Monday to Wednesday, another Thursday and Friday, the latter has no control of the class whatsoever. I accompanied them on a school trip recently, and I was shocked at how much even DD, who's very conscientious about obeying the rules, was taking the piss.

Most teachers are good, a few are just dreadful.

Op...I've had a few children go through the school process...not one teacher has ever told me what learning style my kids have. Are you sure you aren't expecting too much? Parents evenings normally go like this....how are you? Do you think he/she is settling in? Any problems? Well, this is where he/she is up to. Ok, thanks, bye. All wrapped up in five mins tops. Do other teachers really do it differ and talk about learning styles? Have I been missing out here?!

I’m surprised so many people are fine with this teacher causing anxiety with her methods in more than one child ever year to the extent that that some leave the school to escape it.
The OP mentions that the teacher doesn't click with 'wriggly boys'. That doesn't mean the teacher is inducing anxiety in multiple children every year. People click with different people. That's life.

Equally, some children leave schools every year. I would question if/how the OP knows that every child who has left have left because of that teacher or because being in that class has actually caused a massive issue (as opposed to people being precious snowflakes which does happen.)
E.g. a parent threatened to pull their child from our school because I'd told their darling (lazy!) DC that an a level means taking notes in class and doing their homework. Apparently I was a mean bully who gave no help to anyone, all the students hated me and the whole class was failing because of me. A quick flick through the class books said otherwise and it really was a case of lazyitis and 'i'll tell my mam on you'. It kicked off a couple of times with that parent (including trying to get other parents to complain - they didn't). School backed me every time. The child was instructed to drop my subject and then ended up with Es because their attitude was awful. Someone who only heard Mum's version would think I was the next Satan.

Point is the OP only knows about her situation. Speculating based on gossip and hearsay is a waste of time.

Yes there are some dreadful teachers, but the OP has said that the teacher's lessons are good, that she was intiially concerned her DC was picking up complaining from friends and that her DC gets upset whrn OTHER children are criticised.
It sounds like a personaliry clash or not clicking and doesn't strike me as worth moving schools over. There's support in place and there's the option to move classes.

To be honest, the entire set up there seems to be too many blurred boundaries which i don't think helps.

TabbyMumz
That's standard.
My appointments usually go:
Me - how do you think DC is getting on
Parent - well we were hoping you'd tell us that laughs / typical teenager never tells us anytging so we hope no news is good news
me - well they're doing well on x y z. They need to work on a b c. To do this theu cpuld be doing... how does that sound?
Parents - sounds good to me/how would we be able to support at home
Me - give example.
Parent - brilliant
Me - as i say your child is a credit to you/lovely to teach and will be absolutely fine. Lovely to meet you

Are you paying for this?
If so tell them your Dd needs to move classes or you will take her out.

Agree with Fresta. Also, is it at all possible that dd is having problems with her friends and the teacher is being blamed? OP, you said dd had recently had some "massive blowups" with friends. There could be issues there which she hasn't told you about. Kids don't always tell us everything and can sometimes deflect the real issue onto something/someone else.

I'm not sure I would change schools.

You have had four children in the school now, but those four are different people from one another- what is absolutely ideal for one is not always a good match for the other three. However, if the overall ethos and ideals of the school match you and your husband's, then this goes a long way, and it could be that the school is the best option available.
(I have this with our primary- whilst a perfect fit for my eldest, my youngest has found it more difficult to fit in, but it is the only real option for primary where we are, and his other issues would make it hard to move him).

A child with anxiety can be helped and supported in many ways, and it sounds as though the school are wanting to help with that.
Is there another class she can move to? Are things extreme enough that even moving to a different year for a few months would help (if there's only one form per year for example)?
Presumably your DD has friends that she would miss if she changed schools? They will be a large source of support her if she remains where she is.

Oops- sorry- missed the bit about friends!

You have decided that the teacher is the issue and it sounds like you have coached your dd through asking her things like: 'What's hard about being in the teacher's class?' You are clearly too close to the other school staff and the psychologist so you are not getting an objective view. If you are so convinced that the teacher is the issue, then the answer is obvious move schools. If your dd is fine elsewhere you will have your answer. However I suspect that you have a dd who has mental health issues and that you will need to address this to resolve her issues. I know that is much more worrying than complaining about 'an overly critical teacher'.

What were the other things on DD’s list?

The thing you posted about getting the day dreaming child to do some filing doesn’t sound at all demeaning to me and the fact you can’t list other things is a bit odd too. She just sounds a little ‘old school’ to me and personally, I think there’s a lot to be said for ‘old school’.

I wouldn’t move DD, I would use this few months as a life lesson. As we go through life we have to negotiate difficult relationships with bosses, colleagues, friends partners etc. We need to learn to cope & we need to learn how to cope. It’s not always possible or desirable to leave - if you have a best friend with a difficult DH or a fabulous job with a difficult manager for example.

Poor dd

cansu
I mentioned something similar earlier.
The OP is aware on reflection that they are far too involved and shouldn't have half the info on their colleague's professional development.

The OP has name changed since the fiest post so it's really hard to see if they've replied.

I would move schools. Your DD clearly struggles with her teacher and she didn't know how to deal with her situation so resorted to pulling her own hair out. Your DD also felt she couldn't tell you what she was doing either. This is not a healthy situation for her to be in.

Sit her down and explain the options of moving school or class and let her decide. You need to show her that you support her.
Forget all this rubbish about teaching her resilience. Once your child resorts to hurting themselves to cope then its gone past the point of needing to learn to cope better with the situation.

I have never forgiven my mother for telling me to 'get a grip' and to just 'get on with it'. School was an absolute nightmare for me. Once I was broken mentally I was lost fir the remainder of my school years. It still haunts me today that my parents didn't support me because I needed to learn resilience

I find it astounding how many adults would change jobs if this were happening to them but they suggest their child should just put up and shut up.

So . . . I think my thinking is clearer! If I were to post now I would write:

DD3 (8) is showing signs of anxiety in her current class (pulling out her hair, which began in October and rapidly escalated). She hasn't shown signs of anxiety in other stressful situations and on all accounts seems stable and happy, with friends and good school records. The school leadership has said that they will intervene to support a more positive tone in the classroom. DD3 is seeing a psychologist and is talking to her. We are talking at home about what stress is, everyone has stress, and useful ways to cope with situations that are difficult.* After a few more meetings with the psychologist, we'll decide whether to leave her in the class, move her to a different school, or push harder to change classes (which the school doesn't want to do). I am worried about whether it will be harder to stay with a teacher who's not a good fit, or change classes/schools, but either way DD will be well supported. It's tempting to point fingers at the teacher and think about past problems but the school leaders will figure that out while I focus on DD.

I think that's better thinking about this. Thanks MN.

@Maisypops I am sorry for the name change. TBH I haven't posted on Mumsnet in a while. I usually post on Urbanbaby or Youbemom (US boards) but I was very reluctant to post there for fear of being ID'ed. I remembered MN from when I was living in the UK and thought it would be better to post here for advice. As I was remembering my password etc I saw my old username which has one of my kids' names in it and decided it would be better to change. I didn't realize the difficult it would case (the US sites don't have usernames). I've been this one since the second post or so.

MN is a much better board, I had forgot!

What type of school does she go to? Is a private school?

I only ask because if kids moved classes around here, most kids would just go 'oh ok' and parents wouldn't you register it.

It just seems like the teachers teaching style, is different to your daughters learning style. That's not a bad thing. And yes teachers should adapt their teaching to incorporate all learning styles, it it doesn't always happen. That doesnt make them a bad teacher!

However, we all go through life having to be around people we don't get on with. But we have to deal with it, not run away. That's what you are teaching your daughter to do.

How many hours per week is she with this teacher? Is it worth upsetting the apple cart for a few hours? If he's that bad, move her classes. Tuff to what other parents say (again I can't see many being interested!)

I'm another one who immediately wondered about your dds friendship groups.

My dc have had teachers they really didn't like and came home and moaned about (and at least one who did genuinely seem to dislike dd1!), But the times they have been upset and anxious have been, without exception, to do with other children. It has sometimes been hard to get it out of them, and I bet if I'd said "is it that you don't like Mrs x?" they would have agreed to that, as that is far easier- surely it's fairly normal not to like the teacher?

I'd be digging deeper than this obvious answer

I pulled my son out of primary school part way through year 5 after similar issues with a teacher made him extremely depressed. I had intended to home educate through year 6 but after a meeting with what would be his new teacher he decided to give it a go and went back to the same class from the start of year 6. He loved it. The new teacher was a world apart and although there were a couple of awkward moments with the old teacher doing things in the playground that seemed a little bullying, DS bounced back and loved that year.

After the first half term the fact he’d left and come back was forgotten. I think if you have the option to home educate for a while then that or switching class for the rest of the year would be the best option. Do note though, that though my son loved home ed he found it hard to settle into the groups knowing he was going back into the school system for year 7.

The year 5 teacher was rehabilitated with lots of training at the end of the year (my son had been the second to leave) and children who had him the next year were far happier.

I am struck by the empathic response. I was/still am super sensitive to others emotions. FOr example, when I am feeling fragile, someone missing the bus because the driver didn't see them and pulled out can be enough to make me cry - the look on their face, the fact they'll be late, why didn't the driver stop? etc.
My response is disproportionate to the event.
Over the years I have learned to recognise this response in myself, and 'check myself'. I used to become incredibly anxious about being late, often an hour before I was even late! Now I have a few rote things to say to myself and techniques for diffusing my responses.
Does she read a lot? I read a LOT, especially as a child, and it serves to make you particularly empathetic - always seeing things through others eyes. I also have an overactive imagination (which is useful for my artistic career), used to do really well at school and be incredible eager to please, an intense need to achieve and impress, and have always been passionate and emotional.
What I am saying, is if she is the kind of kid who responds like me, she is always going to feel things deeply, and she'd be better off with counselling/CBT/drama classes/ support that allows her to both recognise emotions and gain control over them. Emotional literacy.
There's been lots of assholes in my life, but it's how I respond that matters.
Hope this helps. You sound thoughtful and considered. My advice would be focus on building her up, less on the school that obviously has a lot of processes in place that they are already acting on. Good luck.

empathic? *empathetic