Should I change DD to a different school?

[eleanorsmom]

DD3 is 8 years old and in the same school where DD1 completed, DD2 is in Year 8, and DS is in Year 6. It’s a wonderful school with many hands-on projects, good attention to children’s social emotional development, integrated curriculum, etc. I work in a different part of the school that does teacher training using the school’s philosophy and model. DH is on the governance committee.

DD3 is not perfect but she is the last child I expected to have difficulty at school. She is very social with many friends. She does well in school with no academic difficulties. Her reports have always been very good with a few areas to work on (like being more flexible in group work - she can sometimes have an idea she really gets attached to and has trouble letting it go).

DD3 has a teacher this year who is notoriously difficult for some children. I thought the problem was usually with wiggly boys. DD has all of her best friends in the class so she was looking forward to the year. DD2 had the teacher and she didn’t have any problems. So I didn’t think much of it when DD3 was assigned to the class.

The teacher has been at the school for at least 20 years and she makes curriculum interesting (they learn about the Silk Road with many integrated art, science and writing projects, field trips, etc). However, her relationships with children are poor. In conferences, she is not able to describe individual children’s learning styles or personalities at all, let alone how she works with them. (Instead, she describes the curriculum and what children need to do better, with the same advice for every child). In class, she continually tells children their work is not good enough and is randomly punitive in small ways. A small handful of parents interpret her style as high standards and they like it. A bunch of others figure there is good along with bad. Every year there are a couple of kids who really have a hard time with her, and every couple of years a kid is devastated and ends up leaving the school. (There’s a long history of poor leadership in that part of the school, the kids who leave were often wobbly in the first place, and the parents who have really gone after the teacher have done it in an obnoxious way, so the teacher is still there year after year, despite having a long and wide reputation).

Two of DD3’s friends had a really hard time with the teacher from the beginning of the year. DD3 has had a low level of mild complaining, which is unusual for her, but I thought she might be picking up on her friends’ complaining.

At the end of October I noticed there was an area near DD3’s hairline where the hair was prickly, like it had come out a few weeks before. She said her hair tie got pulled out in gym class, which seemed unlikely, but I let it go. Throughout November, I occasionally saw her rubbing a strand of hair across her lips and I told her to stop “flossing” with it. Then in early December I put her hair into ponytails one morning and all of a sudden I realized that she had a large area that was missing hair and that she had been pulling it out. I've got photos that pinpoint the time as starting around mid October (normal hairline) and drastically changing by early December.

I met with the school leadership (and eventually the teacher - I was initially worried that the problem would be worse if she felt cornered so I didn’t meet with her right away). I had DD3 meet several times with a psychologist who used to work at the school and knows the teacher. I told the psychologist that I was open to hearing that the home life was the cause of the problem, or a big part of it. I took DD3 to the doctor to make sure it wasn’t alopecia or thyroid issues or whatever.

I asked DD3 “what’s hard about being in the teacher’s class?” And she gave me a long, long list that is well summarized by her first sentence: “she blames kids for acting like normal kids.” I’ve seen the teacher casually demean children. For example, during drop off one morning: “Evan, could you come do a task for me? I need papers filed. I see that you aren’t doing your reading anyway.” (The child was momentarily daydreaming, not bothering anyone). That kind of comment doesn’t bother many kids but it seems to really bother DD3, even when it’s not aimed at her.

I noticed the problem Dec 11. Here is where we are now:
DD3 has stopped pulling her hair. She has fingernail polish that she chips instead, and her hair is in cornrow braids (which she likes), so the habit part seems to have broken. The school is monitoring when she chips her nails so we can tell when she’s anxious (she never does it at home).
The psychologist lays the blame for DD3’s anxiety squarely with the teacher. DD3’s need to be good enough and to have a positive relationship with her teacher is at odds with the teacher’s constantly telling kids they are not good enough.
We are of course reducing stress anywhere we can, so we are making changes at home, but there isn’t much to work on.
We are talking to DD3 (and the other kids, as a family) about stress being normal and that everyone needs to have good ways to manage it.
The school leadership acknowledges the problem and is trying to get the teacher to change. The teacher wants to change but really does not understand what she is doing wrong. There is a good coach working with the teacher (someone I like and trust), going in to give the teacher feedback, and they are doing lightening up things like dance party and reading silly stories in the classroom.
DD3 has had some massive blowups with her friends last week (the week after we made this discovery). We think that she is finally letting her emotions out rather than internalizing them. Which is better than pulling her hair, but she has missed a couple of hours of class processing the problems, and the teacher really doesn’t know how to handle social problems well. DD3 cried for half an hour one day before the coach overheard her and intervened (that has never happened in school before).
We have until Jan 8 before DD3 goes back to school. Our options are:
Leave DD3 in the class with as much support as possible (reminding her that the teacher has a problem with criticizing, continuing to see the school psychologist, etc)
Move DD3 to the other class (if it is an option - the school has gone back and forth on that. It would be hard to come up with a narrative for the parents and children about why it is happening. And other parents would want to move their kids)
Move DD3 to another school for the rest of the year, then return to this school (of course she could stay at the other school if she wants to). The other school is a school where I used to work, about 10 miles away. This would compromise my work but I can afford it professionally and financially, if needed.
Homeschool for the rest of the year. (I have a good friend who homeschools so she would join existing groups for writing and math and so on)
Considerations are:
We don’t want DD3 to think that she isn’t strong enough to deal with a difficult situation. We don’t want her to remember this year as the year she couldn’t handle it and had to run away.
On the other hand, we want DD3 to understand that she can leave an abusive relationship!
She won’t want to leave her friends who are all in the class.
On the other hand, she is really good at making new friends.
The teacher is getting help but we have to assume the school will lose focus and things will settle back more or less to the way they were, especially if DD3 stops pulling her hair and the dramatic clue that she is stressed and anxious is gone (i.e. she could still be very stressed and anxious, but without the hair pulling, we wouldn’t know. She keeps it all inside).
Even if we are giving DD3 support at home, the daily cutting of a mean teacher is hard for a kid to handle
If DD3 leaves the school and returns, it will be a story that follows her until the end of her time there (5 more years)
If DD3 changes classes, the other teacher will handle it well, but there will be all sorts of drama among the parents and the current teacher would make it awkward and difficult every time DD3 sees her in the hallway, at lunchtime, etc.

What would you do and AIBU to consider leaving the school?

DD did go to hair pulling as a response to stress. However, she has no other signs of MH issues and has in fact coped with some remarkably stressful situations with very typical responses of sadness, crying, talking about her feelings, etc (moving to a new country - age 4, accidentally killing our pet bird - age 7). She pulled her hair a few times at home between Oct and Dec, out of habit I think, but the vast majority only happens at school, and only in this classroom (not in specials like gym or music). Now that she's chipping nail varnish instead it only happens in class, never at home, never at specials. I don't think she has underlying MH issues. I think she expects relationships with grownups to be positive, which at 8yo is reasonable, that she internalized the stress of a negative relationship, and I don't think she had an understanding or language about what was going on.

if you move your daughter to a different school, there is no guarantee that the next teachers style will be better for your daughter.
I would focus on your daughter developing resilience, especially is the comments are not aimed at your daughter and the other children not bothered by her style.

I would say you being in the school is making it all too close (e.g. it shouldn't make a differenve if you happen to like thr person who is coaching and to be honest, coaching in my school is between the coachee, the coach and thr coaching coordinator. It is emphatically NOT to be discussed beyond that. That is why we have a positive culture where people opt to be coached).

I could tell you my pupils' strengths and weaknesses but not their learning styles because learning styles have been found to be total bollocks. People may prefer certain things but it does not mean they have to learn a certain way (i blame learning styles for low literacy in some kids because teachers were saying timmy is a kinaesthetic learnwr so we don't get timmy to read and write. He can do role play or craft)

Equally, giving criticism to another student is not the teacher having a problem so you telling your daughter the teacher has a problem isn't exactly helpful.

You say you knew the teacher didn't click with some children but that's fine when it's 'wriggly boys'. I'm sure there are some of my students who prefer other teachers styles. Some will prefer mine. It doesn't make me or my colleagues better/worse.

Clearly there's an issue with your child and it sounds awful and i would agree you need to get some support for her. I think you need to take a step back in terms of how much your nose is in the professional development of a colleague. Your level of involvement/info would never happen in my school (as a parent or colleague) because it's really not appropriate.

I’m quite surprised by the comments you’ve received. I had a teacher when I was 8 who, looking back, was not well suited to teaching younger children. I was very shy and terrified the whole year. Some of the things she said to me ring in my ears still, aged over 40. I think that year made my lack of confidence even worse, and it took me years, into adulthood, to deal with it. I don’t necessarily think you should take her out, as I do agree with PPs that she will meet all sorts of people in life. However, I do think you should make sure she understands that you support her and are in her corner, and try to help her talk about her feelings. I wish my parents had done that.

I am a little confused. Your dd is obviously very upset and the School,is taking it seriously if she is seeing the psychologist twice next week- but I can’t see what the teacher has done that is so very bad......

I was wondering about a Spld rather than mh issues, which may make her take comments rather too literally and confuse her. If she has reacted badly before there may be a pattern of behaviour which she can not mask at times of heightened anxiety. Is she rigid in thinking or struggles without routine, for example. Depending where you are there may or may not be the resources to investigate such.

Frontstep
I think the comments that have been reveived are quite fair.

One of my colleagues is much better suited to teaching GCSE and A level so their timetable tends to be mainly KS4/5 with maybe some y9 if needed. However thry could be put in y7 and they are a great teacher; it's just they are better at the top.
Some colleagues are better with lower ability groups, I quite like groups of nice lively lads. It doesn't mean we can't do anything else comeptently.
The teacher sounds like a competent teacher. No teacher's style will suit everyone all the time.

What strikes me from the OP is how inappropriately involved the OP is in the professional development of a colleague. They are quick to say their assessment of a colleague. Then comment on how the teacher is being coached. Then comment on how tjey like and respect the person who will be the coach. Then they are thinking of leaving because they have to assume the support won't work. I would be disgusted if any colleagues professional development was being discussed so freely. It is simply not appropriate.

Op, your child is only 8 years old. Whilst this might be a good learning opportunity for her in how to manage stress, she is still just a child and it is a big responsibility to place on her shoulders when it is clearly having a huge impact.

Personally, I would go with changing classes. The school can manage that how they see fit. Your answer can be whatever you want it to be, but I would go with a brief truth. Dd was becoming ill with anxiety in that class. Other parents can draw whatever conclusion as to to reason. You cannot be responsible for their choice to pursue a similar action themselves if they choose to. The other options are just hassle tbh.

It is extreme to liken the pupil/teacher relationship to an abusive one. It is a clash of personalities. An adult would make a choice whether to tolerate their differences or move away from the person they do not get on with. People leave jobs or move away from friends every day because they simply clash. If you've done everything you can to try and improve the relationship but the effects aren't significantly improving then it is looking after oneself to choose to walk away.

If the teacher targets dd after a class change then you pursue the school through appropriate channels to resolve it.

It sounds like you have otherwise had a positive experience with both the School and teacher up to this point so changing schools is an extreme consideration, especially if you want to go back for the next school year. What happens if dd's space is taken by someone else in the meantime?

To summarise our experience. I have Ds1 who suffers with extreme anxiety due to adhd/asd (adhd diagnosed, asd suspected). We loved his teacher, as did he, even though she had a reputation as strict, fierce etc. But dd1 had previously had her so we knew where her reputation came from. She was a brilliant teacher, engaging, supported her pupils instinctively. Adores them all. We believe she had a soft spot for Ds1.

However; a house move forced a change of School. Within weeks Ds1 had stopped biting his nails although other behaviours continued. The difference was a School who wasn't afraid to handle the tough issue of getting him through the door.

We've also had masses of other support offered from the school itself and not just his current teacher. Precious school teacher adapted to him, but the school did not necessarily support any adaptations outside the class, thus increasing his anxiety in certain situations.

So while I still have a very anxious Ds1, he is learning better ways to manage himself.

I'm not sure op has suggested her dd is being singled out, just reacting to what is the apparent norm in the classroom. Agree there is inappropriate sharing of the teacher's development and blurring of professional lines within the management team.

I read the whole post but even half way through I thought take her out of school. No child should be as unhappy as she is and you risk setting her up with a lifetimes fear of school. It’s really worrying that this teacher has such a high rate of attrition with kids dropping out of class every year. My DD doesn’t enjoy school but she’s never feared it on the level your DD does.

I like that you want your dd to know that she can leave an abusive relationship. But this isnt one. I know she's distressed, but 2 things strike me. 1 her need to do well is linked to her selfworth. Thats not great. Children need to know that who they are and how they perform at school are 2 different things. 2 she is upset by other children being scolded. I think she needs to learn to be a bit more selfish and stop caeing so much about others. I wonder if she is highly sensitive.

I think just continue the year how you are atm and tell her that she has to get through til July and that will be it. You sound very proactive and sensible and all the issues are being addressed. If someone was on the employment topic saying that they had a bad boss but they would be changing after 11 months I think the advice would be to stick it out whilst keeping a diary of events just in case.

Is she getting enough exercise? Are there any childrens meditation classes she could go to?

Thanks to everyone who has responded. I have been having the same discussion with myself, and with DH, over and over, and it's helpful to have other POV.

I am deeply involved in the school (it's a private school, not in UK). I work in a different area than the children's programs - in teacher training - but I care about it and have been there for a long time. I know the coach because I've worked with her for ages. It does make the situation much more complicated.

The "abusive" comment took center stage for many. I also wrote that every year (every year) a couple of kids have a really hard time with her, and every couple of years, a child is devastated and leaves the school. A child left mid-year two years ago, another child a couple of years before that. I asked a friend whose child is now in college what his experience of the teacher was, and she said "it was the worst year of his life." I didn't and probably can't provide vivid examples, because the kind of continuous, cutting remarks that she makes aren't vivid but they are real.

And here I am back at the starting point, with a gut instinct to get DD out, but complications and second thoughts. I'll go try to be helpful on other threads :)

Unless I have misunderstood you OP, it doesn't sound like the teacher is treating your DD any differently to the rest of the class. It's just that your DD is not coping well and feeling anxious. And you say the school is trying to help by coaching the teacher and your DD is seeing a psychologist.
If I was in your position, I would be worried that removing my DD from the school wouldn't help her at all. What if her next teacher envokes a similar reaction?
Potentially moving class at school could help, but that also involves upheaval, which could unsettle your DD (and she would no longer have her best friends in the class).
I would stick it out longer and see if the new measures help.

Move class.

I've worked with a teacher who was too stressful for primary age children and I changed from holding an "It's only a year, they'll cope," opinion, to a "Move them!" opinion. For a handful of children, it really is a bit too much.

By the way, I can see why the post was long and a. it helped me understand what was going on b. demonstrated that you are very thoughtful about this c. probably helped you to grip your thoughts on the issue.

I'm definitely not one of the posters who would berate you for presenting such a long OP.

I think you need to focus on helping your daughter with her reaction to the teacher. Learning to deal with criticism and not take it personally is a really important skill for anyone wanting to succeed in life and be happy.

Ah! Too late.

Well, if you do pop back - good luck with whatever you decide.

@thecatfromjapan I am still checking, thank you! I'm just popping in and out. I'm sure I'll reread the thread a few times over the next week as we figure out what to do.

This teacher is bullying your child, OP. The school knows, and while the teacher has said they'll try to improve, they haven't.

The school has an obligation to prevent bullying.

Ask them for a copy of their anti-bullying procedures, and tell them you expect them to follow those procedures in this situation. They don't get to ignore them because this is a teacher bullying a child.

You don't have to cause your daughter any more stress by moving her to a different school, or moving her to a different class within the school: it's not appropriate for the victim of bullying to have to make huge changes. The bully should be the one to be removed from the situation, not the victim.

The school should be minimising her stress by stopping her having to face this bullying teacher every day. They can move teachers around, so this bullying teacher has a different class; or they can suspend her. How they deal wtih it is not your problem. All they have to do is follow the rules they set, with regard to bullying.

I am deeply involved in the school (it's a private school, not in UK). I work in a different area than the children's programs - in teacher training - but I care about it and have been there for a long time. I know the coach because I've worked with her for ages. It does make the situation much more complicated.
It isn't an issue that you know the coach.
The issue is that you are even aware the colleague is being coached and who they are being coached by.
I don't care how 'deeply' someone is involved in the school. If that type of information is coming from management then it's piss poor and if your colleague has said 'oh I'm coaching mrs x' then that is bloody unprofessional.

I teach 3 colleagues children. Home and work are separate.

I also wrote that every year (everyyear) a couple of kids have a really hard time with her, and every couple of years, a child is devastated and leaves the school. A child left mid-year two years ago, another child a couple of years before that.
Kids leave schools all the time.
Every year I have a few kids i don't click with. I'm still a good teacher.
Every year kids will look at their timetable and think 'i'd rather have had... than...'
I look back at my own school days. I preferred some teachers to others. I remember one teacher who i thought was great but by best friend hated them.

I'll be honest. It is starting to sound to me like the school isn't a particularly nice environment to work in.
Parents have cliques to bitch about staff. Not liking a teacher is now being billed as a reason for disrupting an education. Either management discuss professional development needs or coaches think it's acceptable to gossip about the people they are supporting and you have parents deeply involved in school that they are able to find information out about staff thry don't like and then start telling their childreb that the teachers have problems.
It sounds like a very nasty and unprofessional environment with too many blurred boundaries.

What were your other children's experience of being in this teacher's class? She's your fourth child, is that right?
It seems significant that it's the first time there seems to be a problem?

“Evan, could you come do a task for me? I need papers filed. I see that you aren’t doing your reading anyway.” (The child was momentarily daydreaming, not bothering anyone).

If a child is upset by a comment like this then the child has an issue, not the teacher.

You lost me at your “wriggly boys” comment to be honest. That sort of generalisation is stupid and irritating for this mother of two perfectly behaved boys. And even “wriggly boys” deserve kindness.

Anyway, I’m sure everyone on this board has seen a teacher, at some point in their lives, Be the frightening ogre. Your description reminds me of an awful teacher at my school and decades later my mum doesn’t understand why Mrs P was able to get away with picking on kids every year. It is quite possible that she’s not doing anything wrong to your daughter, but your daughter is sensitive and suffering from stress. I know my sisters own migraines started when she had her for a teacher. So, can you have her moved to another class? And how come the school has only just picked up on this teachers ways?

@MaisyPops Thanks for the perspective about the coaching relationship and the importance of that being private. I do know the coach from work I have done with her in the past, but it's a good reminder that I need to have a lot of distance from her right now. I agree with you about learning style (kinesthetic vs. aural vs. whatever) - it was bad phrasing. It's more that she doesn't see the children as individuals - she can't describe anything about who they are. What books they like, what's hard for them, what's easy for them, what they are sure to be excited about, what they drag their feet about. I suppose teachers don't actually have to know all of that about each child, but it's like the children are invisible to her, as people. The curriculum activities in this teacher's class are truly remarkable - engaging, interesting, deep, etc. I think she should have been a museum educator, putting together exhibits that tell a story. That doesn't require year long relationships with children. I won't tell her coach that though, I'll keep it to myself :)

Have her move classes.

Any 'uproar' will be minimal and will disappear quickly. Trust me. I've seen it in our school when a child didn't gel in a class and was moved across to another one.

Just tell the school that's what you are insisting on and move her to another teacher. Don't let them bulldoze you about it. Just do it. Your DD's mental health is deteriorating and she needs to be moved. Now.