to think there should be a strict ban on trans-identified men in women's sport

[pisacake]

We recently had a MAN winning silver medals at the World Weightlifting Championship, at the expense of women.
He could have had gold but appeared to throw the winning lift:

Now we have a journeyman male (194cm tall) volleyball player from Brazil (world's leading volleyball country), who had to go off to random places like Indonesia to find work, walking into the women's Superleague, and outscoring the best female player (and double Olympic champion) on his team 25 points to 9: www.facebook.com/voleibolfemininobauru/photos/a.578277125569830.1073741828.578250175572525/1601320639932135/?type=3&theater

The (male) national team coach says he wants him on the women's team, and he could compete at the 2020 Olympics.

<a class="break-all" href="https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=esportes.estadao.com.br/blogs/bruno-voloch/jose-roberto-guimaraes-admite-convocar-tiffany-para-a-selecao-brasileira/&prev=search" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=esportes.estadao.com.br/blogs/bruno-voloch/jose-roberto-guimaraes-admite-convocar-tiffany-para-a-selecao-brasileira/&prev=search

This is a man who couldn't even get a club place in Brazil (out of 10 teams) as a man, now he is one of the the best 'women' in the country, by reason of his male physique.

AIBU to think this is wrong and transitioning males should be
excluded from women's sport under all circumstances?

Thank you SpartonDregs and as you see I accept what others have said. I was not indulging in GF (would I ever?) - the question was seriously asked and has been seriously answered.

Yes andrew sadly some women will not be able to compete in women's sports because they do not fall within the defined limits. But better that then let in absolutely anyone who wants to call them self a woman, like the ahem clearly male cyclist pictured upthread.

The most utterly ridiculous of all the guidelines is the one that says bioological women can't take testosterone to boost their levels to the magic 10 nm/l (whatever that means) because that's considered cheating.

Female competitors have to cope with whatever testosterone level they were born with. Male competitors can lower theirs a little bit and compete.

That really isn't fair.

NOT that I'm campaigning for female athletes to be able to take testosterone, but someone should at least challenge this rule - and in doing so might manage to match some of the world records set in the 1980s [cynical]

It's time to stop using testosterone levels as the test for eligibility for female athletes. That would solve this.

We now know that testosterone levels can be manipulated. In female sport, female bodied people aren't allowed to do this (it's cheating). Male bodied people are positively encouraged to to it (it's necessary for them to compete).

Surely someone in authority can see this is wrong?

I just find it strange that most non trans folk i speak to, if you look at comments on articles - are very much against TW competing against females - while many transfolk, especially TW - are very for it. I came up agsinst a group of TW arguing for Jillian Bearden in an article- i was called a science denier, flat earther, right winger, religious nut, a right winger, a Trump supporter etc.

Turns out some of them are team mates of Bearden - they’ve set up a competitive TW road cycling team.

how will intersex people ever compete
There may well be a small number of people who will never be able to qualify for the Olympics. That's life. It's the same for lots of disabled people whose disabilities don't fit into the Paralympic categories.
What definitely can't happen, is people being given an unfair advantage.
There needs to be a straightforward rule that bans transwomen competing against women, regardless of when they transitioned and what their testosterone levels are.

how will intersex people ever compete

How will I ever compete? I am old enough to be the mother of most elite athletes. I also am slow as hell at running and have no co ordination. Most people can't compete really so why should men be able to propel themselves to elitism by identifying as a woman?

YANBU
I have stopped watching sport

Maybe they should get there own category? Or would that not be Inclusive enough or whatever. But I agree it undermines women's sports.

This is the thing, they could campaign for their own category in sports, they just don't want to. They want to muscle in on women's sports instead.

They want it because they know they'll win.

Well, it’s partly that - but in fairness many of them, post-operative and otherwise, genuinely believe that they are women now. I am very sorry for them in that case, they are ploughing a difficult furrow, but they must be excluded from women’s sport. Except chess.

I do think that they think they’re women - well - Bearden and Hubbard anyway. I just don’t understand how they can stand on the podium holding their trophies while happily and proudly smiling. How can they not be mortified - i would be.

The obvious solution to this would be to scrap the gender division in sport, pool all the prize-money and just have a single competition for people who identify as being of any or no gender.

Having special contests for women because they cannot beat men is an offensive concept. Sport should be about doing your best, and the best winning. Arguing otherwise is the same as arguing that we should split the Olympics into different competitions by race, on the grounds that white men can't win the 100m anymore.

We don't accept division on the grounds of race or sexuality, but somehow it's fine on the grounds of gender or disability.

Having special contests for women because they cannot beat men is an offensive concept

I play rugby. I probably am as good as a similar level amateur man. I am not and never will be as strong. Playing against men would be an actual, physical risk.

By your rules women don't play? Thanks for that.

It isn't offensive to state that women have physiological differences that make them less adept. That's biology.

Having special contests for women because they cannot beat men is an offensive concept

It's not about it being 'special' it's about fairness. Men have a physical advantage over women, it's in their biology. If sports weren't separated, women wouldn't win anything. It can also be dangerous in the heavier contact sports such as rugby or boxing.

How is that good for women's sports and encouraging women into it?

If men's and women's football were to be merged, the vast majority of female players wouldn't get a look in. Most clubs would probably have no interest in signing them. Having sports separated by sex is a positive thing and enables both men and women to shine at their chosen sport. It's certainly not offensive, how ridiculous.

Having special contests for women because they cannot beat men is an offensive concept. Sport should be about doing your best, and the best winning.

It is the basis of women even playing sport...your way wipes out women in sport at all.

Hmmmm...perhaps that is your cunning plan?

ChelleDawg2020 Are you serious or are you taking the Right Royal Yuletide Piss?

In every muscle-based sports at every level men have on average run faster, jumped higher, thrown further than women at the same level. There's a reason for that: it's called biology. Perhaps you have been watching that film about Billie-Jean King and Bobby Rigg, but that was a highly unusual one-off.

Merry Christmas to you either way.

bambambini
"Andrew - like this post operative TW? Do you see pist op TW as women then? Seriously curious to how men view this."

One thing men don't think (at least in the circles I inhabit) is that this is in any way a victory for men over women. I hate the idea that some posters here are assuming that it's a plot by all men to remove something from women. I'm sure it's not. Most men that I know are happy for women to have their own spaces, toilets, changing areas, railway carriages, whatever. If they need it to feel comfortable, fine. In sport, men and women are physiologically different, and having separate male/female competitions in most sports is fair, nothing else. Sadly, a very small number of men (who most men would not identify with at all, I would have thought) insist on using the current trend for inclusivity to insist on access to Top Shop changing rooms, female toilets, female prisons. Personally, I think that is properly dodgy and the motives far from pure.

I can't fathom how anyone could win at a woman's event having all the physical advantages of a man, and look themselves in the mirror. It's so obviously cheating, but it is also the Emperor's New Clothes so no one can say it is.

Thank you CloseToTheBone

I have not the slightest wish to intrude into female toilets and changing spaces (female railway carriages we don't have in the UK, and that would be another issue) and if ever I go to jug I expect it to be a men's jug.

For different but overlapping reasons I don't want adult females in male toilets and changing spaces (yes, Madam, I mean you who wanted to bring her 9 year old DS through the men's area at the pool).

Above all, sport must reflect the actuality and if that's hard - and it is - on some people it's JTB.

Having special contests for women because they cannot beat men is an offensive concept.

No, what’s offensive is shoving women’s sports in with men’s then gleefully shouting “see! You bitches wanted equality. Now you’ve got it”.
Which is what happens on the internet all the sodding time.

Men have a natural physical advantage, not something they’ve worked for. Women have a similar one but there’s no breastfeeding olympics, no birthing olympics and no one banging on about how women are superior because men can’t have babies is there? Our physical attributes tend to make us poorer yet are infinitely more useful to society than knocking a ball over a net.

Andrewofgg
female railway carriages we don't have in the UK, and that would be another issue
The issue has been raised, though, and I for one wouldn't have a problem with it.

When Oscar Pistorius wanted to compete in the able bodied Olympics with his prosthetic blade, he had to undergo all sorts of tests to ensure it was fair. Why are there no tests to see if having 3x the amount of testosterone confers an advantage?