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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think there should be a strict ban on trans-identified men in women's sport

161 replies

pisacake · 21/12/2017 10:38

We recently had a MAN winning silver medals at the World Weightlifting Championship, at the expense of women.
He could have had gold but appeared to throw the winning lift:

Now we have a journeyman male (194cm tall) volleyball player from Brazil (world's leading volleyball country), who had to go off to random places like Indonesia to find work, walking into the women's Superleague, and outscoring the best female player (and double Olympic champion) on his team 25 points to 9: www.facebook.com/voleibolfemininobauru/photos/a.578277125569830.1073741828.578250175572525/1601320639932135/?type=3&theater

The (male) national team coach says he wants him on the women's team, and he could compete at the 2020 Olympics.

<a class="break-all" href="https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=esportes.estadao.com.br/blogs/bruno-voloch/jose-roberto-guimaraes-admite-convocar-tiffany-para-a-selecao-brasileira/&prev=search" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=esportes.estadao.com.br/blogs/bruno-voloch/jose-roberto-guimaraes-admite-convocar-tiffany-para-a-selecao-brasileira/&prev=search

This is a man who couldn't even get a club place in Brazil (out of 10 teams) as a man, now he is one of the the best 'women' in the country, by reason of his male physique.

AIBU to think this is wrong and transitioning males should be
excluded from women's sport under all circumstances?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 22/12/2017 08:18

People with intersex disorders are still either male or female. So it's quite simple really, if you're a man with an intersex disorder then you compete with men and if you're a woman with an intersex disorder you compete with women. Simple.

TrojanWhore · 22/12/2017 08:27

"How many intersex people actually are there and how many are sportspeople?"

You'd probably need to google for the sport you are interested in, and what timeframe.

Setting rules for participation has a history stretching back decades, and the numbers are sufficient from the POV of sports governing bodies internationally to have considered and frequently updated the rules. As there is such a history of change, what is needed now are concrete proposals for better systems. Not more repetition of the 'someone should do something'

How do you define male and female when someone is intersex and it cannot be genetically determined? Or when chromosomes are not normally expressed?

Those who say 'simple' are probably not involved in sports governance.

OtterInDisgrace · 22/12/2017 08:29

I’m sorry, but I don’t care if intersex people get to compete. Not if it’s at the cost of biological women’s rights.

Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

Increasinglymiddleaged · 22/12/2017 08:29

People with intersex disorders are still either male or female. So it's quite simple really, if you're a man with an intersex disorder then you compete with men and if you're a woman with an intersex disorder you compete with women. Simple.

Or you have a gender neutral class.

I am Hmm about many of the arguments regarding trans women/ men on MN but women's sport has to be women only as females are physically not as strong and can't fairly compete against men. That is pure logic unless you think the untreated possession of XX Chromosome should be a category in the Paralympics.

SpartonDregs · 22/12/2017 08:31

You'd probably need to google for the sport you are interested in, and what timeframe

You said 'how ever will intersex people still compete', so you need to do some investigation as to whether there actually are any or whether this is an outlier/red herring/damn good excuse to obliterate all women's sport.

To be fair I am not interested in any sport whatsoever. I hate it.

However I am interested when I see men beating women and nobody doing alot about it. In boxing, men literally beating up women. Because that ain't a sport is it? It is abuse. And that is simple.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 22/12/2017 08:38

Hmm Just because someone has an intersex disorder doesn't mean their sex cannot be determined. People with Turner syndrome and swyer syndrome are clearly female despite both of those syndromes being intersex disorders.

I think there's a lot of ignorance about what intersex means tbh.

SpartonDregs · 22/12/2017 08:40

I think there's a lot of ignorance about what intersex means tbh.

Yes the people concerned about it don't seem to have any data to back up their claims that it is even an issue.

MidniteScribbler · 22/12/2017 08:44

The games should be merged anyway, so good time to do it. But that won't happen.

Next year's Commonwealth Games on the Gold Coast will have para-sports running alongside the mainstream competitions. No one seems to have even batted an eyelid.

Increasinglymiddleaged · 22/12/2017 08:54

In boxing, men literally beating up women. Because that ain't a sport is it? It is abuse. And that is simple.

No one makes anyone go into a boxing ring. It is an individual choice.

HouseworkIsAPain · 22/12/2017 08:56

Can anyone clarify what the testosterone allowances are for women and men when they are competing in the same (women’s) sport?

I have read that women are not allowed to supplement their allowance to reach the maximum, but men are allowed to suppress their testosterone down to the maximum. So men have a way of always being at the maximum allowed testosterone while women can’t, unless they are somehow able to produce that level of testosterone naturally (which is very unlikely).

This cannot create a level playing field.

It can’t be right surely, but is this what is happening?

HouseworkIsAPain · 22/12/2017 08:57

I mean ‘women are not allowed to supplement their testosterone’

SpartonDregs · 22/12/2017 09:01

No one makes anyone go into a boxing ring. It is an individual choice.

So sportspeople are not in any sort of contract? Good to know.

MsGameandWatching · 22/12/2017 09:02

No one makes anyone go into a boxing ring. It is an individual choice.

Indeed. So don't worry about all those years of training and ambition. Men are there now and it's up to you if you want to fight them. No ones making you get in that ring to get pasted by a bloke.

Yes what a "choice" Hmm

JacquesHammer · 22/12/2017 09:03

Trans rights are not trampling anything ffs

Apart from women's rights in sports for a start.

No one makes anyone go into a boxing ring. It is an individual choice

Indeed. And as a woman having made the choice to box other natal women it's reasonable for that to be a given. Not that they will box against a man with all the physical advantages the Y chromosome conveys.

I was involved with the set up of a women's rugby team locally back in the late 90s. So only 20 years ago. Before that women's rugby wasn't given headspace.

So hooray, we've had a space for 20 years. Definitely time for that to be eroded Hmm

Increasinglymiddleaged · 22/12/2017 09:12

I'd got out of the trans mindset with the boxing comment. I was thinking that it was about saying that boxing shouldn't be allowed because it was violent. Of course men shouldn't be allowed to compete against women in boxing, a fact that is so obvious I missed it.

BertrandRussell · 22/12/2017 09:15

"No one makes anyone go into a boxing ring. It is an individual choice."
I know nothing about boxing. But I do know that weigh ins are a big thing and a couple of pounds either way can make or break a boxer's chances when men compete against men or women compete against women..........

JacquesHammer · 22/12/2017 09:16

But I do know that weigh ins are a big thing and a couple of pounds either way can make or break a boxer's chances when men compete against men or women compete against women..........

Not to mention reach, stance etc. Patently unfair

Original poster
pisacake · 22/12/2017 10:56

"No one makes anyone go into a boxing ring. It is an individual choice."

Well not exactly. If you are boxing as a career and have spent 15 years training then you don't necessarily have other choices. You might as well say no one makes nurses nurse, they could just sit at home.

OP posts:
Maryz · 22/12/2017 13:02

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans, Hannah Mouncey has been kept out of professional women's footy for the moment, but she is playing as an amateur for a women's team.

For those who believe that male-bodied people should be allowed to compete in women's sport, why then have women's sport at all.

Why have sex segregation anywhere, really, since people are now being allowed to select their own sex, apparently Hmm

Pootlebug · 22/12/2017 13:27

I do ultra marathons, and a race I entered (in the UK) last year specifically stated on the entry form that you could enter as the gender you most identified with. It was just a matter of ticking a box on the entry form.

My boyfriend is a decent amateur runner. But he seldom comes in the top 3 in the male field. He'd have won nearly every trail race he entered last year if he chose to self-identify as female. It only takes one of the significant number of male runners in this category to deny females the race win that should be theirs.

As time goes on and more people self-identify as female in the Olympics, I think it is inevitable that people in amateur sport will follow.

Maryz · 22/12/2017 13:45

I think that's an issue with triathlons as well Pootle. The difficulty now is that the competitors are just referred to as "women" so it's impossible to see how often women's races are won by male-bodied people.

It's transphobic to ask, too, and it also appears that history on the internet is being altered so there is no "deadnaming" aka no reference to some of these athletes' male backgrounds. It's getting to the point that the only times it's apparent is if photographs are issued. And that's really, really unfair. Because we are going to get to the stage where women winning women's races are going to be stared at to see if they look "masculine" Hmm

Maryz · 22/12/2017 13:49

And googling also showed me this picture of Molly Cameron, who tried to race with women but isn't currently allowed to (I think that might change soon).

However, she's in a right bind. She's been told she won't be allowed in the men's races because she identifies as a woman [baffled]

to think there should be a strict ban on trans-identified men in women's sport
MidniteScribbler · 22/12/2017 19:03

Hannah Mouncey has been kept out of professional women's footy for the moment, but she is playing as an amateur for a women's team.

I actually agree with this decision. AFLW was a hard fight for women to have recognised professionally, let alone to get it to be respected and even televised.

to think there should be a strict ban on trans-identified men in women's sport
Maryz · 22/12/2017 20:22

I have no problem with her being kept out of the women's professional game, I agree it's the right decision (but I expect her to challenge it and have it overturned over the next couple of years, unless things change substantially).

I have a massive problem with her being allowed to play in an amateur women's league though Shock

Pootlebug · 23/12/2017 07:28

I agree with Maryz that it's still a big issue that Hannah Mouncey can play in n amateur league. Partly because her size and strength in a high contact game like afl leave her opponents at serious risk of injury. And partly because if amateur sports are allowed to be dominated by people who experienced puberty as males, then it will put women off from participating. This is sad for both potential future olympians, and those who just want to be fitter and have fun.