to think there should be a strict ban on trans-identified men in women's sport

[pisacake]

We recently had a MAN winning silver medals at the World Weightlifting Championship, at the expense of women.
He could have had gold but appeared to throw the winning lift:

Now we have a journeyman male (194cm tall) volleyball player from Brazil (world's leading volleyball country), who had to go off to random places like Indonesia to find work, walking into the women's Superleague, and outscoring the best female player (and double Olympic champion) on his team 25 points to 9: www.facebook.com/voleibolfemininobauru/photos/a.578277125569830.1073741828.578250175572525/1601320639932135/?type=3&theater

The (male) national team coach says he wants him on the women's team, and he could compete at the 2020 Olympics.

<a class="break-all" href="https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=esportes.estadao.com.br/blogs/bruno-voloch/jose-roberto-guimaraes-admite-convocar-tiffany-para-a-selecao-brasileira/&prev=search" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=esportes.estadao.com.br/blogs/bruno-voloch/jose-roberto-guimaraes-admite-convocar-tiffany-para-a-selecao-brasileira/&prev=search

This is a man who couldn't even get a club place in Brazil (out of 10 teams) as a man, now he is one of the the best 'women' in the country, by reason of his male physique.

AIBU to think this is wrong and transitioning males should be
excluded from women's sport under all circumstances?

However, she's in a right bind. She's been told she won't be allowed in the men's races because she identifies as a woman [baffled]

Even though you can literally see his cocks and balls through the lycra.

Don’t see the problem, maybe what folk have been saying recently about mumsnet is true.

Irony bambambini? Right?

Caster Semenya is rumoured to be Intersex. There were tests and all sorts of things carried out on a woman. A woman who had grown up thinking she was a woman. She was cleared to participate as a woman.

Apparently she may now have to go through HRT tharapy and potentially surgery to compete as a woman. She is a woman!

Interestingly the reason is...

'Testosterone has several potential performance-enhancing effects on the body, including boosting the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood, building lean muscle mass and increasing mental drive and aggressiveness. The new study also found that female competitors with high levels of androgens benefit from improved visuospatial abilities.

Bermon believes the study’s findings have significant implications for future rulings on testosterone in elite women’s sport. “We believe that these results could help the CAS jury to better understand the relationship between androgen levels and athletic performance. Additionally, our work addresses the main CAS request: quantification of the advantage experienced by female athletes with very high level of circulating androgens when compared to athletes with normal level of androgens.”^

But transwoman simply need to a tick a box? Sorry, that makes no sense. The intersex argument is simply bullshit. This does not benefit them.

Are we saying that the research was wrong? It was a problem for Caster to participate in RUNNING (NON CONTACT) but now it's suddenly okay, for any man to step into a boxing ring with a woman (adult human female)?

How is that not fucked up doublespeak thinking?

www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/03/caster-semenya-could-be-forced-to-undertake-hormone-therapy-for-future-olympics

Has anyone mentioned Tamikka Brents v Fallon Fox?

YADNBU op.

Why are so many so eager to see biological women lose out? Why do we have to be so eager to not make biological men feel bad? Once biological men are allowed to enter women's sport, women's sport ceases to exist. Once biological men are allowed to call themselves women on a random whim, what meaning does the word 'woman' even have?

It is insane to allow trans gender women into women's sport. There are many male sports where disparate sizes are not allowed to compete. Take boxing or weightlifting for example. You wouldn't find a welterweight competing against a heavyweight or a flyweight against a middleweight. Same is true of women's boxing and weightlifting

Yet when it comes to transgender apparently it doesn't matter what your size is. And that's before we even start talking about blood volume, bone density, muscle mass etc.

It really is the biggest load of bollocks ever to even think it is acceptable.

"Caster Semenya is rumoured to be Intersex. "

Not just rumours actually.

Caster IS intersex. In a more developed society this may well have been identified at birth, and it's possible Caster would have been raised as a boy (though I'm not sure - this depends on Caster's specific medical details, which we aren't privy to). (Caster has internal testicles & male testosterone levels, though has some degree of insensitivity to it).

I can’t imagine any woman who has played sports alongside men being okay with this. I used to be fairly serious about road cycling and while I could enjoy training alongside men in my club who didn’t take the sport too seriously, when I trained with men who trained as hard as I did, the difference in performance was just huge. When training in the gym we’d use bikes that measure your power output and men who trained a similar amount to me and competed in a equivalent classification to me could easily generate about 1/4 more power than I could.

There is simply no way that, in this sport at least, males and females can compete and it be in any way fair.

YANBU

Ikea - exactly. I play for fun and competitively with and against men. I’m in no delusion about how men out perform women. I’m above average for a woman but can really only compete against pretty average men.

From what I understand with Laurel, there's no reason within the rules to disbar her from competing. As she is so dominating (she broke all the existing NZ records pretty easily) there was no choice but to let her compete or to discriminate. I believe the issue went to whatever the international body for oly lifting is and they couldn't find any grounds to deny her right to compete.

On the flip side, if she was to have all the advantages of being a man... shouldn't she have won easily? She has lifted more than in that particular comp... but if being born male made the sport so unfair, it shouldn't have even been close to depending on her final lift to win.

I have a lot of sympathy with Caster Semenju and have always been under the impression that she should be able to compete.

She was born a "girl", she was raised as a girl, outwardly she is a girl, and although they are now monitoring her hormone levels she is more woman than man.

That's a technical problem but intersex is uncommon and the very fact that we know all about her points to the fact that it is rare. I'm happy that she can compete as a woman (she's always been "female") because she is an exception who doesn't need to be picked out.

Men who were born and brought up as boys, however, that's a different story.

dh competes in the Masters events in a recognised sport. Recently he came third in his age group (over 60s). His time was more than 8% better than the fastest elite woman.

Even as a progressively less fit 60 year old, he could announce he was a transwoman and compete and win against the very best women. That isn't right or fair.

YANBU OP

Smurfit I think that is the case but the rules need updating to reflect this emerging problem for women's sport. Rules are not set in stone. A sport I am involved in has change a couple of rules recently due to inventive people thinking of new techniques not specifically banned by the rules and other people copying them. It is always possible to change the rules if people see the sense in it.

As for winning easily, well if I were male identifying as a woman and knew it was going to be massively contentious, I'd probably think about 'only' getting the silver now and again. I predict it will be no holds barred in the Olympics though.

Smurfit, I think she threw the last lift.

She was avoiding winning. Avoiding the outcry that would have resulted. The whole thing was a farce.

As an aside, while I accept photographs can be confusing it looks as though the Iranian Womens Weightlifting Team may be like their football team.

Has the IAAF now made a new ruling and reinstated testosterone limits? I thought a decision was due but cannot find anything on this. The previous limit was set so high though that surely people anywhere near it could only have a Y chromosome or be a female doping cheat. The latter of whom would be banned!

Regarding Caster Semenya, it is just my opinion but I think it entirely possible she has 5 alpha reductase deficiency which is an abnormality of the formation of the genitalia of an XY male. It leads to babies being identified at birth as female but they go through male type puberty and usually have testosterone in the low normal range for males. I don't think someone with 5-ARD should be competing in women's sport.

Sporting bodies could introduce separate intersex/trans identity medals.

It’s not like all of a sudden the olympics is going to be full of men in skirts, pretending to be trans

That's the thing, it isn't happening suddenly. It's happening gradually over time, right in front of our eyes.

And it's nothing to do with hating transwomen. You can't change biology, you can't change the fact that being born Male gives someone a physical advantage over women in sports.

Yes, because their skeletons and muscles will be stronger. The same applies to FTM trans men competing in women's sports, if they ever used testosterone then it's unfairly advantageous.

Rachel Evans is a well-known zealot who believes that any questioning of trans dogma is bigotry, even if it is about protecting women from assault or supporting women who detransition.

This is where I think the transactivists are losing the support of many. "We want someone to declare themselves female and be allowed to do what they want" No. "We want trans-Olympic events run alongside male and female competitions and dedicated open access bathrooms alongside male and female bathrooms'. Good on you, go for it, you have our full support.

It's interesting how many times it has to happen to be unfair isn't it. See I think once, one girl coming in fourth who should have placed, one women not going to the Olympics after a lifetime of training,

This has already happened more than once so is already unfair, if you value women and girls.

Didntcomeheretofuckspiders

Intersex and transgender are not the same thing at all. Its an entirely different discussion.

But yes the period thing doesn't work- especially for gymnastics I'd think.

thegreatbeyond] - that was another thing I was looking at yesterday.

A teenage girl decides she's a boy; she is put on hormone treatment for maybe ten years (no surgery). Then at the age of 23 she decides she isn't a a boy after all and reverts to competing as a woman.

What advantage does up to ten years of male hormones have on her? And should she be treated as a cheat as a woman would be who took male hormones in any other scenario?

High school trans athlete Andreya Yearwood competes and wins state titles in the US against girls. I’ll never understand women not only accepting this but actually delightedly cheering on this progress. I’ve debates this on articles/discussions and the women who say that it’s more important to be kind to transgirls/transwomen than be concerned that females are lising out unfairly - this thinking honestly just blows my mind. I’ve seen some say they’re proud if their daughters graciously and happily lose their place on a team, lose a medal to a TG - if it means their daughter is being loving and kind and tolerant 😫 WTAF!

I can’t imagine what goes in in the likes of Ludwig, Jeska, Hubbard, Yearwoods’ heads that makes them happily compete and delightedly smiling as they accept their medals on the podium - i keep thinking Jeremy Beadle’s hiding somewhere.

Schools and even universities are now rumbling about following on and making sports open to what gender you feel suits you best - no hormones necessary or any type of gatekeeping.

www.google.co.uk/amp/usatodayhss.com/2017/connecticut-transgender-sprinter-andraya-yearwood-wins-two-state-titles-amidst-controversy/amp

Schools can't gatekeep.

They have to accept what parents put on a form. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better (if it gets better at all, I'm beginning to doubt it will).