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Grenfell-ex-residents-should-get-a-3-bed-house-with-a-garden-if-thats-what-they-want? - thread 2

304 replies

cathf · 20/12/2017 15:04

Don't know how to do links Blush
But this is to continue discussing the Grenfall-ex-residents-should-get-a-3-bed-house-with-a-garden-if-thats-what-they-want? thread

OP posts:
makeourfuture · 21/12/2017 15:51

I really wish people like you had some way of hearing what some immigrants are saying about the Brits. It would get you running for the hills, girl. You have no idea of what real racism is until you've been exposed to the comments made, esp. about women.

Our First Secretary of State was sacked for having pornography on his computer today.

ChakraLines · 21/12/2017 15:59

Can you provide any proof that immigrants get to rent council housing before British people?

Three main categories of Immigrant. Economic Migrant, Asylum Seeker (from a no-war country), Refugee. Don't be so dim and lazy, research it yourself with Google

Homelessness esp. if there are children will put you ahead of the housing queue. Oddly enough being born in this country and being homeless doesn't seem to cut it. Economic Migrants are not eligible for council accommodation, but if they are low-paid as many of them are, their privately rented flat will be subsidised by the taxpayer, and they will receive CTax discount, tax credits, pension credits.

Furthermore, any unemployed EU citizen can move to any EU country and be fully supported from the public purse. Our govt has chosen not to use discretionary powers allowed by EU whereby if a person has not found work here within 3 months, they have to leave.

Therefore we have obliged ourselves to allow every unemployed EU individual in and to support them financially and for what?

Personwithhorse · 21/12/2017 16:02

Outside of London this is not a topic of conversation. Many were illegal immigrants, why should they get housed above people who have lived in the area for years? There must be at least 1 billion people in the world who would love a nice place in one of the most expensive areas of London. Factist.

makeourfuture · 21/12/2017 16:06

I think due to the nature of the tragedy, immunity was offered.

ChakraLines · 21/12/2017 16:12

Why not offer support to these women?

What support? Some of these women are part of the problem. They support the way of life they've known back home. Who do you think agrees to and participates in honour killings: the mother. We've had 3 honour killings in my town, the details of each are horrific.

woodhill · 21/12/2017 17:35

I did bring up reading matter but also see with my own eyes, I have lived in Greater London all my life.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/12/2017 17:45

There's also the point that, where organisations such as our local womens' centre try to reach out to such women with carefully targeted meetings, the attendance is often pitiful

Should anyone express regret over this, they'll immediately be told - just as we see endlessly on here - that "outside interference" isn't welcome, that these are "strong women who don't need anyone else to speak for them" and that their communities are "perfectly capable of organising themselves"

And on the subject of this latest amnesty, I recall there was some uncertainty over numbers present when 31 died in the Kings Cross fire and again when a further 52 were lost in the 7/7 attack ... only AFAIK no "immigration status amnesty" was offered for either of those

Rebeccaslicker · 21/12/2017 17:48

It is very clear that kitty has no understanding of it. She just wants to spout out things that make her feel good about what a great person she is, and accuse anyone who wants to talk about the issues and why people feel the way they do of "being racist". Which is a shame, as uncomfortable conversations are needed on all sides for people to face up to the very real issues that we have in society.

People who don't like having foreign neighbours or competitors for jobs are part of the problem. People who don't interview candidates with foreign surnames are part of the problem. People who judge others on their race or culture are part of the problem. People who move here but have no respect for the country or its culture are part of the problem. People of any background who raise their kids to think they are in some way culturally superior are part of the problem - see the local boys who called my mixed race Indian/white ex a "fucking paki" or the Asian men who were trafficking white girls because they genuinely saw them as inferior sluts. That sort of view is usually learned from early on in life. And people who shut down debate or refuse to participate are definitely part of the problem.

I do find myself conflicted when live and let live means accepting some cultural practices that I disagree with, with FGM being the most extreme example. But mostly we should be working on exploring WHY people feel as they do. Because you might not agree with someone, but they are entitled to a view. Better to try and change it than to write them off - at least you tried!!

woodhill · 21/12/2017 18:21

Just watching SE news with British young men sofa surfing and on streets, very sad. Do they not deserve accommodation

Thedietstartsnow · 21/12/2017 18:35

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear...no matter much people long to make amends for what these people suffered ,there just isn't the amount of houses available,in the area they want. End of....plus the money to buy them from private landlords dosnt grown on trees...plus part of being an adult is taking responsibility for yourself ,that includes insurance if the worse happens.just because you live in a council house/ flat,dosnt mean you don't need insurance,you can't expect the council to cover house/ possessions insurance..they haven't got a magic money tree.part of being an adult with a home is insurance ... I find it shocking how many people just sit back and expect the council to wave a magic wand and conjure up a house for them.

makeourfuture · 21/12/2017 18:37

Just watching SE news with British young men sofa surfing and on streets, very sad. Do they not deserve accommodation

Absolutely. We must get busy fixing social housing. We are failing.

Thedietstartsnow · 21/12/2017 18:41

One more point,yes it's shocking utterly shocking what happened but I'm equally shocked by all the cases of young girls exploited,and passed round for sex by various gangs of men....these girls need compensation,and they need a council house too,because they were failed by the council and social services,these were young vulnerable girls many in care...where is the outpouring of grief for them and demands they should have exactly what they want ???

makeourfuture · 21/12/2017 18:46

I think the situation here is that it looks like the tragedy was caused directly by those responsible for the safety of the building.

ChakraLines · 21/12/2017 20:40

Yes, the responsibility is the Council's but don't forget that the manufacturer of the cladding, building control, the builders who attached the cladding, Procurement Dept at the council, and the senior who signed off on that purchase are all to be questioned.

That type of cladding is in use in Europe but only in buildings up to 4 storeys high. Everyone involved in the choosing and purchase of the cladding need to be asked whether anyone had misgivings. A cursory glance about the facts of this material would have shown it is potentially unsafe for a high building.

Grenfell was built in the 70s, but the cladding installed only in 2015.

"In 2014 the national body for building control departments, Local Authority Building Control (LABC), issued a certificate for the Celotex insulation installed at Grenfell that stated it could be used on tall buildings – but only with fibre cement panels that do not burn.

"Grenfell was fitted with cheaper combustible polyethylene-filled aluminium panels."

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/14/grenfell-tower-cladding-passed-by-council-officers-in-2015

A side issue that has come to light is - why has the local Fire Service not got a long enough ladder?

ChakraLines · 21/12/2017 20:52

And for those not of a delicate, delusional inclination, check out these pieces by Glover and Drury.

“It’s not racist to say that migration has fuelled the housing crisis. So why won’t any politician dare say it? A country that has net migration of around 250,000 every year for ten years is bound to place an extra strain on public services and the availability of housing.”

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5200603/Stephen-Glover-migration-housing-crisis.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5200425/Migration-harder-young-buy-homes.html

BellaDarkness · 21/12/2017 22:30

Hodkinson carried out a qualitative survey of 14 homes refurbished by Rydon that had been the subject of a huge number of complaints. Showers were fitted next to electric fans. A toilet was installed so close to a wall that you could only sit on it sideways. Some households went for days without electricity and weeks without cooking facilities. Cupboards were fitted with wrongly size doors. Tenants who complained reported that they were treated dismissively. One remembered the site supervisor saying to him, “It ain’t Chelsea, mate.” Regenter’s out-of-hours emergency line linked to the wrong database, so callout engineers weren’t available. The striking thing was how long problems could drag out: one family’s flat was flooded in January 2014, and repairs weren’t even scheduled till September. Two years later, their flat still hadn’t been fully repaired and redecorated. Even at the most straightforward level, the work wasn’t done to a decent standard.

When approached for comment, Rydon said that since the complaints were made, three years ago, attempts have been made to remedy the problems. They said the comments were not reflective of most of the residents, and that there was a good level of satisfaction among the residents now.

For tenants with more complicated requirements, the situation was worse. The Cifuentes family, one of whom used a wheelchair, was left without ramps, hoists or any means of escape in a fire, and without a lock on the front door. Repairs were so slow and haphazard that, at one point, the family had to move out for over a month, and the disabled member could only have his needs met by going into a respite unit – whereupon they were threatened with losing their carer’s allowance, their disability allowance and their car.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/12/2017 23:03

To quote some of Migrationwatch's numbers from Chakra's link:

between January 2008 and January 2017 ... homes headed by someone born abroad accounted for more than 80 per cent of the total growth (265,000 out of a 328,000 net increase) of households in London’s rented sector

across England, out of the net increase of just over 1.2 million in the number of new households between 2005 and 2014, more than 1.1 million had a foreign-born head

Obviously these won't all be in social housing or claiming housing benefit, but it's interesting all the same

FitBitFanClub · 21/12/2017 23:11

I think the situation here is that it looks like the tragedy was caused directly by those responsible for the safety of the building.

Well, thank God you're here. Sir Martin Moore-Bick and his team can stand down.

Rebeccaslicker · 21/12/2017 23:32

Based on that response, was Make doesn't seem to think that the exploitation of vulnerable young girls is a tragedy at all, however!

Gran22 · 22/12/2017 06:39

Rebecca and Chakra, some people will never get it. Just as in Rotherham many of the councillors, staff and police seemed to think it would be racist to take action against grooming gangs because of their ethnicity.

Howlongtilldinner · 22/12/2017 07:01

Racism and immigration aside, where did the ‘sense of entitlement’ come from?

I’m not ‘entitled’ to anything..I can’t afford it I don’t have it. I was raised in council housing. When I wanted to leave home, I had no choice but to buy a property. It never occurred to me to go to the council.

I’m from London, and I’ve seen it all. I worked in the community (London) visiting people in their homes, I’ve seen it all. I have worked, had children, became a single parent, still worked. Never asked for anything from the state.

I have every sympathy for those who have lost their homes/family/lives in war torn countries, equally this years tragedy. But ‘entitlement’ no, I disagree totally. Fairness/just/replacement yes, but nobody is ‘entitled’ to anything.

cathf · 22/12/2017 07:29

The thing is, no-one who is arguing do voraciously that the displaced should be rehoused with exactly what they want can answer how this can be done now.
I have asked two posters outright how they would decide between two rehoming candidates. One avoided the question until the thread reached 1000 and ended then disappeared, and the other thought the dilemma should not happen because the council should have built more houses before the tragedy.
That will not rehoused people now, and it is now we are talking about here, because as long as you have Londoners prevented from budding on houses until all of Grenfell is rehoused to their taste, the pressure will continue to build.

OP posts:
makeourfuture · 22/12/2017 07:43

and the other thought the dilemma should not happen because the council should have built more houses before the tragedy.

Let me ask, has this tragedy forced the realisation that we must focus on expanding and improving social housing? Or is it business as usual with the Tories? Their focus still on failed, ideological austerity?

makeourfuture · 22/12/2017 07:50

I see no change. Just denial.