To be shocked by the young woman killed by her own pit bull dogs in the USA?

[AbsentmindedWoman]

I have just seen this, and find it really shocking. Is it not extremely unusual for well-loved dogs to turn on their owner?

It seems different from the awful stories where a dog savages a child in a family. The reports are that this woman had her dogs since puppyhood, and friends said they were very affectionate - surely that's not a sign of an insecure or fearful dog who snaps and mauls somebody?

There are lots of very knowledgeable folks when it comes to dogs on Mumsnet, what do you think - is this just a very rare incident? Or what is the most likely reason?

I love dogs, I found this pretty shocking and very sad.

when he does bite (because yes, he does bite) the pain from it depends on whether he means it or not. If he doesn't mean it, you feel the teeth and a slight pressure but no discomfort. If he means it, it's like having your hand trapped in a vice lined with screws

really it sounds as if you have given your dog a position of high status in your household, it feels entitled to reprimand the humans, just a warning nip if he's in a bad mood, but if he's pissed off he administers a painful bite

that's not the right way to socialise a dog surely?

no doubt you think youre a good dog owner with an in depth understanding of dog behaviour

No your average human can do so much worse.

He's been to training classes, been seen by a vet, we've done everything we've been advised to do - he just doesn't learn very easily but he is getting better as he grows up. He's never unsupervised with people he doesn't know so we'll just keep on keeping on! Some people are arseholes, some dogs are arseholes - that's life. He's an animal, not a robot that can be programmed to behave a certain way.

Also, I've probably made him sound worse than he is! 80% of the time he's loving and affectionate. 10% of the time he's hyper and goes too far with his rough housing and 10% of the time he starts being a complete nob and bites. He's never bitten anyone other than me and DH - the worst thing he's done to a stranger is "slime" them whilst trying to get attention.

Your dog sounds an interesting character 😂 I'd definitely compare him to a male human knob pmsl.

Oh sadly we already have underground fighting rings & the such. That's why I think licences won't work except to push decent owners off of dog ownership. People who fight/extensively breed their dogs have no emotional attachment to them, quite the opposite. Fight dog owners would rather shoot their dog in the head if it loses a fight than take it home & clear it up. No emotion there. Same with BYB, they see £££ not the love their dog gives

There are some more details of the attack here
WARNING possibly disturbing content
www.thesun.co.uk/news/5170956/virginia-woman-killed-pitbulls-details-revealed/

People who fight/extensively breed their dogs have no emotional attachment to them, quite the opposite
Indeed but the majority of bad dog owners are people who are highly emotionally attached to their dogs, selfish and self indulgent people who are so blindly in love with their furbabies that they will not accept that to other people the dog is at best just a shiting nuisance and at worst a shiting Menace

Ofortuna, even though you think I'm a crap dog owner, I do love your username. One of the best music pieces ever created 😊

He just sounds very bitey and I find that alarming, I'm sure you will endeavour to make sure he doesn't get the opportunity to bite anyone but the fact that he already has the propensity would seem to make it more likely that he will

I had previously regarded French bulldogs as a bit comical looking and not very threatening, perhaps I should be more wary of them?

In an honesty, I regret getting a French bulldog. I wanted a German shepherd - a clever dog that can be trained and 90% relied upon. DH wanted a Frenchie because they're cute and comical. We read up on them and understood that they were comical but also stubborn and hard to train - like most bull breeds. I had my reservations but DH was adament. I love the dog but have regretted our decision ever since. He's part of our family now and I'd never turn my back on him as it's our fault we got a breed we were not suited to but I'd never get another Frenchie. Difficult to train is the understatement of the year. In the year I've had him I've managed to teach him "sit" and "paw". He knows what "down" means.m but for some reason goes silly if you try and and get him to do it. He's still not house trained.

I've trained many dogs in the past very successfully so I don't know, maybe he's not very intelligent, maybe he has some kind of mental health problem or maybe I'm just shit with bull breeds.

Our dog is a rescue. At 6 months from Croatia. He's a little gem BUT I would never trust him 100%. I have no idea what happened to him as a puppy.

What boils me is people or parents letting their children run up to him to pet him (I'll admit he's adorable and gets loads of comments and questions about him). Please don't do this or at least ask us first if it's ok!

I'm sure you mean well Sanshin, but the things that you say illustrate the confused and conflicted view that people have about their dogs , for instance, you said this
He's a dog. Not a little boy. Their brains don't function like ours and it's ridiculous to pretend that they do
But at other times you are very anthropomorphic you describe him as a member of the family, you say that like the average human he can be lovely or he can be a bit of a knob.
It makes no sense to describe a dog as a bit of a knob because the dog has no capacity to make moral decisions it cannot be good or bad only a human can be good or bad.

There is always this sleight of hand with dog owners, the dog is allowed to have its cake and eat it to be a dog and be a human, it seems to me that dog owners use the dog as an extension of their own ego to get away with things that they can't get away with

My IL's had a Westie - an un-neutered male - who had the run of the house. He was allowed on beds, sofas, any guarding behaviour he wanted - the whole shebang.

Unsurprisingly he was a savage little bastard, who would go for FIL, or anybody else, quick as a flash if he made a sudden move etc. but for some reason they just thought it was "sweet" and "that's just how he is". He was also a very affectionate dog and loved company, so if you were alone in the house with him, he definitely wanted to be close to you and would "ask" to be petted etc. Being a small dog, there wasn't a lot of harm he could do anyway, but a bigger dog reared that badly would be a serious danger to those around him.

In this case in Virginia, the owner had gone from giving the dogs a lot of her time every day to only being able to walk them once a day and people close to the case have commented that their personalities had changed significantly (for the worse, obv) as a result, because they were alone together in their pen all day instead of being out and about getting exercise. Previously they had been house dogs and the outdoor pen was a new (and unpopular) change in their lifestyle.

The damage to their pen could have been caused at any time recently as they tried to break out from boredom and distress at suddenly being kept in an outdoor pen all the time instead of in the house, as they had been used to all their lives.

I do see your point ofortuna, I do sound conflicted. I sometimes look at him and think "oh my god he's so cute and adorable and I want to snog his face off" but at the back of my mind I know he's a dog. A deformed wolf I suppose. I know in my heart and head that he isn't a family member as such, but an animal we bought to live alongside us. He's company. He doesn't stroke my ego though, he's an embarrassment if anything 😂 Bless him

A dog is a neotenised wolf, it has been designed by humans to be appealing that's why we instinctively become emotionally attached to them and find it difficult to be rational about their behaviour and how to treat them

Furthermore the pet industry leverages this weakness in order to make maximum profit from us it encourages us to see our pets as humans because that's the way to get to spend lots of money on them

Little late o think but On reading rarier pages someone comemted about the type of dog most like to attack and I found this...

The study concluded that dog attacks were most common with the following breeds:
Labrador retrievers: 13.3%
Pit Bulls: 8.4%
German Shepherds: 7.8%
Rottweilers: 3.9%
Chows: 3.5%

Seemed relevant on reading page 3/4 ish but maybe not now.

thing is a dog attack is a general term which could cover anything from a small 'nip' to mutilation and life changing injuries

when I was in A&E after being attacked recently the nurse practitioner who saw me told me that severe attacks from bull breeds had become a significant problem of late

My friend has a frenchie. It's a little terrorising bastard that is far stronger than it looks; they haven't trained it properly; and and I have no idea how they trust it around their 18 month old :(

Generally, untrained dogs aren't a problem wrt aggression. They're annoying as hell but usually sweethearts. My dad has a hug bull mastiff who hasn't had an inch of training in its life. It drives me potty but he's well excerised, well socialised and loved so he's fine with other dogs and kids.

The problems start when aggression is rewarded either intentionally or accidentally. If a dog snaps or bites something it doesn't like (i.e the person threatening to kick it off the warm, comfy sofa) and the threat then moves away (i.e the person goes to sit elsewhere and the dog stays on the sofa) the dog has been taught that biting = reward. Then there are the people who completely miss the signals the dogs give off. No dog snaps or bites for no reason, the problem is their warnings are often ignored until it is too late.

Sanshin, I'd call a behaviourist in your case. Your dog is probably stressed if it's prone to snapping. A behaviourist will be able to pinpoint the trigger of the stress and work with you to desensitise the dog.

Apologies if this has been posted up-thread, but this link is interesting and includes a long press conference with the people involved where they discuss possible reasons for the attack, the full circumstances, and the facts as far as they are known.

wtvr.com/2017/12/19/dogs-went-through-drastic-lifestyle-changes-before-mauling-owner/

@Dot, thanks for the link I note this comment:
“Since this has happened, I spent a significant amount of time researching attacks by dogs of this sort and while it is not an everyday occurrence, it is not rare and it happens with some frequency in this country,” Agnew said. “I don’t want to disparage any particular breed, but if you do the research you will find that many of them are perpetuated by pit bulls.”

also he says “Once a dog tastes human flesh it is not safe to have that dog around humans.”
now does he mean that once a dog has attacked a human it is more likely to do it again, or does he mean that having actually eaten human flesh it gets a taste for it and will see others humans as a potential food source?

Years ago my friend had a beautiful Scotch Collie he had him from a pup and we took him out regularly plus he had 25 acres to run in. He was so beautiful he could have easily been Lassie. After I left that country I heard he attacked him and went for his throat. My friend adored the dog and it had been trained form a pup. It must have been very sad for him to have the dog put down but a serious risk to leave him alive after that.

I can never understand people leaving babies in the same room as a dog.

also he says “Once a dog tastes human flesh it is not safe to have that dog around humans.”
now does he mean that once a dog has attacked a human it is more likely to do it again, or does he mean that having actually eaten human flesh it gets a taste for it and will see others humans as a potential food source?

He's talking bollocks. There's no reason why a dog who has bitten can not be rehabilitated. The 'taste for blood' thing is a myth. Although I don't disagree with what happened to these two dogs they could, in theory, have lived their entire lives without repeating this so long as they were given the right care and behavioural support.

I say in theory because with so many dogs in rescues who haven't bitten these two stood no chance of ever finding the right home. The right choice was made under the circumstances.

According to that last link, the dogs weren’t being fed everyday.

Wow. Two hungry pit bulls.

they do also mention that the victim was menstruating, pp's have mentioned their observations that some animals appear to react to this