To be shocked by the young woman killed by her own pit bull dogs in the USA?

[AbsentmindedWoman]

I have just seen this, and find it really shocking. Is it not extremely unusual for well-loved dogs to turn on their owner?

It seems different from the awful stories where a dog savages a child in a family. The reports are that this woman had her dogs since puppyhood, and friends said they were very affectionate - surely that's not a sign of an insecure or fearful dog who snaps and mauls somebody?

There are lots of very knowledgeable folks when it comes to dogs on Mumsnet, what do you think - is this just a very rare incident? Or what is the most likely reason?

I love dogs, I found this pretty shocking and very sad.

Dogs aren't mentally capable of experiencing jealousy. They don't have the brain capacity for complex emotions.

The ones who snap at children are usually doing so due to fear or stress. Fearful or stressed dogs should be kept away from small children until they've been properly trained and desensitised. If the child doesn't live there full time, it's probably easier to lock them away when the child visits.

There was post Reddit yesterday, a short clip of someone cradling their new born with their husky's head touching the baby's head.

A few "Aaaaaws" then someone pointed out the dog was stressed. Kept licking its lips, ears back, eyes 'bulging'. Not the right word, I can't think of it.

The OP actually came back on the thread and thanked whoever had pointed this out.

Such a reckless thing to do yet such pictures are constantly posted all over the net.

Awful for this poor lady, to have dogs you love turn on you
People dont seem to realise that the dog doesnt love it's owner in the same way that the owner loves the dog
the dog doesnt rationalise about right and wrong, it has no capacity for anything like that level of cognition
it's not a simplified version of a human, it's a predator, albeit domesticated but the predatory drives are still there, no one should be surprised if it attacks and kills another person or dog.

I'll have to read up a bit more on him now though!

Basically every respected behaviourist and trainer has denounced his methods as outdated, ineffective, and at times abusive. Most people in the dog world despair at the fact that he gets so much limelight and so many laypeople are influenced by the bad advice he gives out.

but at the end of the day if it did bite for whatever reason then it would do a lot of damage

As could any dog, but based on size alone we could make this same comment about any dog bigger than a staffie. There's no evidence that staffie's have stronger jaws than other dogs their size or bigger.

"People go on about how friendly their labrador is (and I'm sure it is) but at the end of the day if it did bite for whatever reason then it would do a lot of damage"

Scratches happen in every day life, being ripped apart by an animal is often preventable. So whilst I perfectly understand why people don't want dogs or cats near their dc don't make out that the danger is in anyway comparable, it's not.

I really don't understand what point you are trying to make.

Putting a baby's face close to a cat or dog for a cute photo is not worth the risk, in my book. A scratched cornea is a big deal, even if it's not 'comparable' to being killed by an animal. I don't understand the risk taking, for me wouldn't be a worthwhile risk. I love cats and dogs but they can be unpredictable, through no fault of their own.

I'm aware of that ohfortuna, but humans do love their dogs. It makes it a little sadder for me that her final moments were spent in fear and knowing it was something she loved which was killing her.

I don’t understand why anyone has a pit bull, much less 2 pit bulls. They are not allowed in the city I live in. It’s always the same breeds in these stories — never a labradoodle or yorkie.

Some things about the story don’t add up, though, and I do wonder if the investigation will turn up anything. I wonder if there was a wild animal present. It would make more sense.

As far as these types of stores happening more in the US, it’s because we are a massive country.

I work with dogs, everything from Yorkshire terriers to 75kg bull mastiffs, and can honestly say that whilst I enjoy and love them, I never trust them. They are animals and are bothered by different things to us. I also hate people taking their dogs with them for school pick ups, even friendly and normally placid dogs can be upset by crowds of loud, high pitched children coming past. It only takes a second for the damage to be done.

I have my own dog, a middle aged cavalier spaniel, most of his teeth have been removed (he was a rescue who needed TLC) and he is everybody's friend and wants to be loved all the time. I still wouldn't leave him with a child under 10 unless I was there.

I think scaredycat meant that cats don't kill people.

Is there a link to the story?

It's horrible but they're animals, not people. And whilst that obviouly goes for all pets... Certain breeds are more dangerous than others (if we were to compare a Pomeranian, a Corgie and a... Husky, for example).

That obviously doesn't mean that one doesn't need to supervise or train smaller dogs but the chances of a more or less average adult being killed / overwhelmed by a Pomeranian (or even two) are probably rather slim.

Horrific

I would also guess that the two dogs started fighting between themselves, she tried to stop it and they were too hyped up and things escalated.

It's interesting and quite possibly relevant that the poor woman was menstruating. Some male dogs are very sensitive to this (I own one, and he can be mortifying, I will always know when there is a menstruating woman around him).

Perhaps they were, effectively, fighting over what they saw as a bitch in their pack?

I am another who can see no appeal in this type of dog, nor of people thinking they can control dogs that are multiples of their weight. All large dogs are not the same.

Poor woman. Who knows what caused her dogs to attack.

My father's elderly cocker spaniel attacked him. He was 14 though, so we put it down to age and possibly that he couldn't see terribly well. My father was on the other side of the kitchen putting down his food bowl onto the floor. The dog ran across the whole length of the kitchen (quite a way and fast for an elderly dog), latched onto his hand and wouldn't let go. Eventually he managed to calm him down enough to lever him off. Quite frightening and he died a few months later (the dog).

Yes, I know cats don't kill people.

My comment was in relation to a point someone made upthread about not thinking animals and kids should be playmates. It made me think of how many photos I see of dogs and cats and babies on social media. As someone else has pointed out, these animals can be displaying behaviour that indicates they're uncomfortable, but it's not noticed.

This attack is different because it's not a child, but when it is a child who gets attacked, other family members are often hardly able to believe it because they believed the dog wouldn't hurt a fly.

at the menstruation fact! Fucking hell.

I remember they did an experiment to try to prove if bears were more likely to attack menstruating women, if I remember rightly polar bears were - the others no.

With regard to dog/child interactions, these are always helpful to know:

I think that a dog can be a great playmate for a child. My golden retriever helped raise my kids!

There is an anti- dog sentiment on this thread that I don’t agree with. There is a really big difference between having multiple large dogs known for aggression, and having a well chose family pet.

One of my family member's male dogs is obsessed with menstruating women. He does his utmost to stick his head right in their crotch. My eldest won't visit at that time of the month as she finds it embarrassing. He's never shown any aggression about it, but I could see how two dogs, both wanting that level of closeness whilst being excited/aroused could cause problems.

They certainly wouldn't have believed her to be a bitch to be guarded. Again, dogs don't really work like that. They don't mate for life, they tend to spread their seed. Once they're done, they're quite happy for another male to take his turn. They're also quite aware that we are people and they are dogs. They might have been excited/frustrated by the scent but they weren't fighting over who got to go first.

It's a very sad story. I feel incredibly sorry for the family. I'm not sure if there's more to this, the family seem so certain it wasn't the dogs.

I mean dogs regularly kill/maim humans. Anything, including a NB nails, cats, my nails, random items, can scratch a cornea. Best to reduce all risks, like using scratch mitts, but do keep things in perspective. Dogs can kill, cats can hurt. It's not that hard to understand.

We had a springer spaniel who was the best behaved dog until my husband went out , then he would just go for me and the kids

I grew up with a beloved dog who was very much part of the family, and I do agree they can be a great addition to a family.

But always, always properly supervised, and the dog treated with respect, sensitivity to their needs, and awareness that they're a dog.

I can assure you Hip, you are confusing an anti- dog sentiment with the current privilege that society is currently giving dogs.

Scaredycat I disagree with you, it's that simple. An annoyed or anxious cat can lash out - because it's a cat - and it's a largely avoidable risk if you keep enough space between the cat and the baby.

No, I don't really think that they think she is a dog (poor woman having this discussed after such a horrible end) - but there is absolutely no doubt that some dogs will display 'mating behaviour', for want of a better phrase, around a menstruating woman.

Thankfully my boy who does this is very laid back and not an issue (beyond embarrassment) - but he does display many of the behaviours than a stud dog will show when faced with an in season bitch. No, I don't mean trying to mate them, clearly I wouldn't allow that, but I have been around dog breeding many years and I know exactly what's on his mind well before it gets to that stage.

I can well imagine that with more adversarial males it could become a problem.

If the dogs were a true pair, the female in season, and the owner was menstruating; you have your answer right there.