To think ladies first has no place these days

[Idreamofalandrover]

They've used it twice on the apprentice tonight, why? We aren't in the 50s anymore!

hold open door sometimes and say “age before beauty”

I know, terribly ageist. But it is done as a quip while having manners and opening the door for someone, the same with ladies first, totally harmless

I don't think that is manners. It is polite to hold a door open for someone , regardles of their age or sex- no silly quips are needed.

I always open a door if I'm there before him, I don't wait for him to get there and I always teach my children to do the same, especially if there's buggies and other people struggling on the other side and the youngest DD who's 5 is always doing it now. She's always so proud when someone says thankyou

Phew, thanks for clarifying! It touched a bit of a nerve because the last man I dated used to refer to me as "his woman". I wasn't his woman. We fell out over that...

I agree that everyone should have manners and treat each other with respect.

And yes, on some level I am surprised when a man lets a door slam on me or pushes through it first

but that's because it's rude. And it would be rude whether he'd let it slam, or pushed past, a man or a woman.

The problem with attitudes like the ops is that if a man walked past a women to get to the door first - & then didn’t even hold it open for her ( had this many times ) then he’s an arrogant pig who probably hates women. If he does the right thing ( imo ) and lets the woman go first, then he’s not treating women like his equal.

I don’t want men to treat me like they’d treat other men, I want to be treated like a woman. But then I like gentlemen

How about the man just doesn't walk past her to get to the door first and then there would be no issue with him either being rude because he'd allowed it to close in her face or patronising because he'd "ladies first"ed to her?

Do some men feel emasculated if a woman gets to a door first? Or opens a door? Do they feel diminished somehow if a woman holds a door open for them? What possible reason would they have for walking past her just to open it first?

And yes, if he did that and then also failed to hold the door open he would be rude, as would anyone who did the same, male or female.

I'm not sure what "treated as a woman" means. I think there are a lot of problems in our society, with more to come, that would be entirely avoided if we didn't have such narrow and prescriptive gendered expectations of male and female behaviour.

And I'm not entirely sure why some people feel the appropriate response to...

"I don't like it when a man walks past me just to open the door and hold it open for me. It's sexist. Whoever gets to the door first should all show good manners and hold the door open for whoever follows them"

is

"Would you rather they just let it slam in your face?"

No, moron. I'd rather they didn't speed up and duck in front of me in order to get there first.

I heard it comes from men being a bit cowardly and sending in women first like into a cave or something, so I quite like it!

I think 'ladies first' can (depending on where/how) it's said be 'othering'. In a business competition, then it is - it is shorthand for 'this person gets special treatment by me, the Alpha, because they are small and need looking after'

Buy when into the really big players, going first is a way of imposing yourself ahead of others. But consipicously ushering someone else to go first is also power play - you are making yourself the powerful one who grants the ranking of others.

All about context.

Just live your life OP instead of analysing the minutiae of it. If men open a door they are sexist, if they don't open a door they are pigs, FFS are you bored this week or something?

That's not what she said at all, Madbengalmum

I don’t want men to treat me like they’d treat other men, I want to be treated like a woman. I want to be treated like an individual. Not at all pleased when Alan Sugar turned to Karren Brady and asked her "the woman's point of view".

Snow, so what was she getting at exactly if she was was over analysing and complaining about something that is done daily? People are getting to the point now that everything offends them, it is getting ridiculous.

Yes Yabu. Poor men can't do right for doing wrong.

In my experience most people, men and women, are polite insofar as holding open doors or lending assistance carrying a buggy or heavy bags up steps irrespective of the gender of the person they are helping out. That’s just good manners.

I find that the women lauding the virtues of some nebulous concept of chivalry more often then not come across as massively entitled and a bit princessy. When I was dating I found it a massive turn off if a women started ‘expecting’ special treatment just by dint of the fact they have a vagina.

I treat everyone around me with respect and good manners until such a time their behaviour dictates otherwise. That’s just living life not as an arsehole.

Exactly what surfer said

It's not manors, it's inequality and belongs in the past.

Yawn

Poor men, Jellycat???

Oh won't somebody please think of the men?!!? Poor things. So forgotten and downtrodden in our matriarchal society.

Snow, so what was she getting at exactly if she was was over analysing and complaining about something that is done daily? People are getting to the point now that everything offends them, it is getting ridiculous

people should hold the door open for other people if they get to the door first. You shouldn't jump in front of them to hold the door open for them based on your/their sex.

A man gets there first and holds the door open = good manners and not sexist
A man gets there first because he has sped up/jumped in front of the woman in order to open it first and ushers her through with a "ladies first" = not good manners and sexist
A man gets there first and opens the door for himself and allows the door to close on another person = not good manners regardless of the sex of the person behind him
A man sees there is a woman in front of him; she opens a door; he walks through and says "thank you" = good manners

I agree with you OP, its anachronistic in these times.

The problem with attitudes like the ops is that if a man walked past a women to get to the door first - & then didn’t even hold it open for her ( had this many times ) then he’s an arrogant pig who probably hates women. If he does the right thing ( imo ) and lets the woman go first, then he’s not treating women like his equal.

The problem here is very clearly that he didn't hold the door open for the person behind him - man or woman, that's rude. Whoever gets to the door first holds it open for the person behind them. What genitals you happen to possess shouldn't come into it.

I did once know a man who insisted on doing this elaborate display of letting me go first through doors - unfortunately he was senior to me and I was very junior at this point, so didn't feel comfortable saying I found it ridiculous. What did amuse me, though, is that we regularly both had to walk through the sort of revolving door where you push, and that clearly threw him into a panic, as 'letting me go first' meant making me push the door, but pushing the door for me meant him going first. He tried out all sorts of different combinations with that door, but never seemed satisfied with his solution...

I don’t want men to treat me like they’d treat other men, I want to be treated like a woman.

How’s that then? Looking at that evidence: being treated like a woman means you get paid less; are less likely to progress in a career; more likely to suffer violence at the hands of the opposite sex; more likely to have to take on the burden of childcare and managing a home regardless of how many hours of paid work you do; are significantly under represented in the bodies that run and legislate in our country etc etc.

Personally I’d like to be treated as a person of equal value.

I find that the women lauding the virtues of some nebulous concept of chivalry more often then not come across as massively entitled and a bit princessy.

I feel quite sorry for these women, as very, very often they seem genuinely surprised to find that men who are 'proper old-fashioned gentlemen' turn out to have some other pretty outdated (and rather less advantageous to them) ideas about gender roles.

I kind of expect a well mannered man to open the door for me

Why?

It's not difficult - men or women should open the door for other men or women if it's easier. The sex of the person doing the opening / having the door opened for them shouldn't matter.

Unless you think men should treat women differently when it comes to opening doors because that's what men should do?

I feel quite sorry for these women, as very, very often they seem genuinely surprised to find that men who are 'proper old-fashioned gentlemen' turn out to have some other pretty outdated (and rather less advantageous to them) ideas about gender roles

Yes, quite.

The ex I mentioned upthread who referred to me as "his woman" and thought I deserved to be "treated" and "looked after" also took offence when my male friend offered to massage my shoulder saying, "let me have a go, I'm good with my hands".

Do you understand anatomy? No
Do you understand musculature? No
Then why would you think I should let you do it?

"Because I'm not having another man put his hands on my woman"

Fuck off then.

What I find interesting is the people who see no middle ground between men jumping forward and holding doors open for laydees with a giant flourish, saying "laydees first" loudly and ushering you through, and anticipating a thank you and a coy smile in return (which is kind of expected if you don't want to look rude), and everyone slamming the door in everyone elses face and calling them cunts or something.

The middle ground is that people treat others with a bit of courtesy. And I mean what's wrong with holding the door open for the person behind you and kind of handing it on to them? This standing and ushering through thing is a bit odd! Actually I did it once in a station for a woman with a pushchair and then hordes of people started streaming through as if I was a doorman or something and it was a bit tricky to extricate myself

Interestingly and as I mentioned earlier but everyone ignored, most men only do "laydees first" in situations where it costs them nothing. In a situation where laydees first would mean they didn't get a seat on a train or whatever these same men are bang up there elbowing elderly women in the face or whatever. The point is it's performative, not actually anything to do with being well mannered. And a power thing in some circs, as evidenced by the fact that some (a small number of) men refuse to walk though a door being held open for them by a woman. And a larger number look visibly uncomfortable.

Interestingly and as I mentioned earlier but everyone ignored, most men only do "laydees first" in situations where it costs them nothing. In a situation where laydees first would mean they didn't get a seat on a train or whatever these same men are bang up there elbowing elderly women in the face or whatever. The point is it's performative, not actually anything to do with being well mannered.

Yes, I think this is really true - they're also much more likely to do it for or in front of women they want to impress.

All these women who expect it, when there's an elderly man with a stick and a door do you stand there glaring at him waiting for him to open it for you?

Of course you don't (I hope). You might even think to open it for him. Why, if this is all to do with men and women, and nothing to do with who is stronger / more capable than who?

FWIW it might have made more sense in ye olden days when some doors were fucking massive and heavy and women were corseted to the max which must be quite restrictive. I came across a door the other day on an old bank which was a massive great wooden thing and I had to put my shoulder to it! In those circs of course the issue is / was that things were built for the average youngish non disabled man to use and thankfully we are trying to be a bit more inclusive now. What use is a door if only "Britains strongest man" can open it?

The middle ground is that people treat others with a bit of courtesy. And I mean what's wrong with holding the door open for the person behind you and kind of handing it on to them

People treating other people with courtesy.

Not because they are men and they like to treat women with courtesy.

It should be people treating other people with courtesy.

I wonder if those men who hold doors open for women would also hold doors open for other men?

Or if those women who expect a man to hold a door open for them will open a door for a man?

I am so bored of that fake feminist nonsense, and trying to pretend men and women are identical and should be treated exactly the same is doing us so much disfavour!

if you read the thread, these posters do not want equality anyway, they want to push their agendas and be the victims of the evil patriarchy and blame everything on ^them". They are also awfully rude and vindictive towards women who do not share their views.

So we are equal, but we need more privileges, more rights.

To illustrate what I mean: imagine being a mother, and your daughter and son each slap one of their classmate from the opposite sex. Both will be punished accordingly BUT the boy will be accused to be a bully, a future rapist (I swear I read that on another thread!) and his "crime" will be worst for attacking a girl. Because we are not equal.