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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think ladies first has no place these days

402 replies

Idreamofalandrover · 17/12/2017 22:20

They've used it twice on the apprentice tonight, why? We aren't in the 50s anymore!

OP posts:
SnowGlitter · 18/12/2017 19:43

Quite, granny.

g1itterati · 18/12/2017 19:46

I was asked about some specific perspectives in my own relationship and I was trying to answer the pps.

If we were only interested in men for the physical act of sex, it would get quite bland really. There are other psychological dynamics in male /female relationships, but these vary couple to couple obviously.

Howlindawg · 18/12/2017 19:49

My dad is foreign (I won't say from which country but it's a lesser-known European country) and has always been (what I would call a gentleman) one to hold doors open for my (English for what it's worth) mum and all the other associated things that you so dislike.

When we regularly travel to visit family in his birth country the lack of this kind of thing (men do NOT open doors etc) and we are always struck by how poorly women are treated. They are far from equal and we firmly believe as a family that men being "gentlemen" on the whole is the only way.

grannytomine · 18/12/2017 19:51

I'll pass your feelings on to my DH Howlindawg. I'm sure it will make him feel great.

g1itterati · 18/12/2017 19:55

granny - I think you know what people mean here really. It's not about the door fgs! It's an attitude of mind and integrity towards women that some men have more than others.

SnowGlitter · 18/12/2017 19:58

There are other psychological dynamics in male /female relationships, but these vary couple to couple obviously.

This is a nonsense. There are psychological dynamics in all relationships, whether they are M/F; M/M; F/F... but they are not based on gender stereotypes. Gendered expectations of behaviour, dress, interests have a lot more to do with cultural expectations rather than anything else.

For example, the reason heterosexual marriage is lauded as 'the norm' is that it supports a capitalist economy. Whilst a woman is at home, keeping the house, cooking the dinners, ironing the shirts, raising the children, it frees the man up to get on with the important business of Making Money and, well, Business. Whilst the man is financially responsible for supporting not only himself, but another adult (his wife) and the children, he feels the responsibility of continuing to provide for his family thereby Making Money for the economy, society... and the next generation of workers is brought up.

Most of the gender stereotypes we have exist to support this model. Whilst people believe it is just The Way Of Things, they are less likely to challenge it.

SheGotBetteDavisEyes · 18/12/2017 20:01

It's an attitude of mind and integrity towards women that some men have more than others

I wouldn't equate opening a door for me as being somehow indicative of someone having 'integrity towards women.' Depending on the circumstances, I might be more inclined to think the opposite.

Integrity - to me - is how we act when no one is watching or listening. Nothing to do with opening doors, I quite agree.

SnowGlitter · 18/12/2017 20:06

Integrity is doing the right thing even when no one knows about it. What's that got to do with opening doors.

Although it's an interesting point.

Because how many of these men who behave so respectfully and chivalrously to their wives in public are wanking to porn or going to lapdancing clubs or attempting to initiate sexting relationships with younger colleagues...

Because whenever you read about it on here, the woman didn't have a clue. After all, he was always such a gentleman...

Holding doors open and offering someone a seat means nothing.

grannytomine · 18/12/2017 20:06

g1itterati having seen my husband humiliated when I carried my own case into the maternity ward I know exactly how this sort of judgemental attitude works. You see because he is 6ft and strongly built people assume he is fit and well. There is no way the midwife who was tutting and moaning could know the pain he lives with, the fact that carrying as much as a magazine will result in him being bedridden for days. Don't judge people when you don't know all the facts.

g1itterati · 18/12/2017 20:09

Snow - I think culture has a lot to do with it, yes, but I don't think it's everything. Culture is not some kind of separate entity enforced on us by capitalism or the patriarchy, it's develops through time and is characterised by human nature bring the way it is.

SnowGlitter · 18/12/2017 20:10

Well there you go. granny's husband's experience is a perfect example.of how gender stereotyping is damaging to men as well.as women.

I'm sorry he has that experience, granny. People can be shit sometimes.

g1itterati · 18/12/2017 20:11

granny - I am in no way whatsoever judging your husband and I'm sorry for his injury.

grannytomine · 18/12/2017 20:14

Thank you SnowGlitter, it was really hard at the time. Fit and healthy when I got pregnant, saw his Consultant with a week old baby in my arms and the poor man was so embarrassed and didn't want to tell us it was permanent and would get worse. Amazing what we get through when we have to.

G1itterati, I am sure sitting her knowing why my husband couldn't carry my bag you won't judge him. If you saw him, big tall strong bloke, 9 inches taller than me, walking along with me in labour carrying my bag, stopping every now and then for contractions, can you honestly say it wouldn't cross your mind that he should be carrying the bag?

SnowGlitter · 18/12/2017 20:16

No, not by human nature being the way it is beyond the Authority voice seeking to protect it's position of authority.

You're still speaking as though gendered behaviours are natural law waiting to be discovered/revealed whereas they are 'written' and protected by those positioned to benefit from maintaining the status quo.

SnowGlitter · 18/12/2017 20:22

Actually granny i hope you don't mind me using your situation to illustrate it further.

If you were accompanied in labour by a woman, then people might wonder why she wasn't offering to carry your bag, but the harsh judgement would be missing.

I've said it before and I'll carry on saying it, men and women both benefit from feminism. But the reason people are so derisory about it is that it challenges the status quo and there are some people who would stand to lose, or worry about what they would stand to lose if we gained equality (and it's evident on this thread).

g1itterati · 18/12/2017 20:26

Well I'm not sure it's always that simple. There is society and then there is the personal sphere. For instance, you could say DH and I have quite traditional roles in that he's always worked and I've been home with the 4 DC, but the truth is I've never felt oppressed by it. We just played to our strengths and that's how it panned out.

Granny - I can't really say what I would think if I saw you and your DH in any given situation, but I take your point. Again, it's about an attitude, rather than specific physical acts.

grannytomine · 18/12/2017 20:37

g1itterati attitude might come into it but I'm not sure what you could judge about my husband in that situation or when check out operators would tut because he wasn't helping with the shopping when I was heavily pregnant or hundreds of other situations that have occurred over the years. Ironically as his disability has worsened it gets easier in some ways because people can see he is disabled.

SnowGlitter, no I don't mind you illustrate away.

sagamartha · 18/12/2017 20:44

I think it is lovely to see a bit of chivalry. I was in B&Q today - lady buying several bags of slate pieces which were on a trolley - man behind her in queue lifted one bag for the assistant to scan and then offered to take the trolley to her car

I wonder if he'd have offered to do the same for a man?

If not, why not?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/12/2017 20:58

Dh got a bit upset on holiday when the older female bag packer started pushing our trolley to the car to unpack it into the boot

I think it was her age as much as her sex but i could be wrong

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 18/12/2017 21:27

Glitterati, as an experiment why don’t you spend a week holding the door open for every man you encounter.

Then you’ll see that it’s not just about them doing something nice for you.

g1itterati · 18/12/2017 21:32

Saga - well no, he would probably not have asked if it was another man because that would be patronising to the man.

But this does not mean offering to carry stuff has to be patronising to the woman because AS A GENERAL RULE women are less physically strong than men. I'm sure someone will come on now and say, "Well I'm 14 stone and 6 ft tall and I'm much stronger than the man next door who is 5 ft 6." The fact remains, men are a different build and stronger in general. How many women are rushing to get jobs building motorways etc? It's no coincidence is it.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, but I don't know why women get agitated by this - it's a non-issue. Physical strength is just one thing. It doesn't mean stronger people are superior.

g1itterati · 18/12/2017 21:34

RitaMoreno - well what is it about?

grannytomine · 18/12/2017 21:35

g1itterati it is amazing how strong you can get if you do all the lifting and carrying.

sagamartha · 18/12/2017 21:37

Saga - well no, he would probably not have asked if it was another man because that would be patronising to the man

It's always nice to offer help to people who may be struggling with something. If you do something because they are a man or a women, then there's an issue.

sagamartha · 18/12/2017 21:40

If you open the door for someone because they are a woman, then there's an issue.

If you open the door for someone regardless of sex, then that's courtesy and good manners.