To think ladies first has no place these days

[Idreamofalandrover]

They've used it twice on the apprentice tonight, why? We aren't in the 50s anymore!

I see no issue with it. I'm bringing up my DS to respect women and hold doors open for them, let them go first, give up a seat on a train for a woman. It's called good manners. If anyone objects he will respond that he's not doing it because they are a woman but that he's a gentleman.

Get over it OP.

Snow - well if there are no real differences between men and women, what attracts you specifically to men in first place? Is it just the physical attributes and nothing more? Apart from the obvious, what do you get from men that you can't get from a woman?

well if there are no real differences between men and women, what attracts you specifically to men in first place?

Cock.

But seriously, men and women are obviously physically different.

But that is what I am attracted to. A man's physique; a man's smell; the feel of stubble on my cheek...

It's simply good manners, just as BusyBee says. If you prefer the opposite then thank goodness I brought my DCs up to be polite and well mannered.

There are many ways of being a man; many different masculinities. As there are different femininities; ways of being a woman.

You talk about it in terms of absolutes: masculine/feminine characteristics but without explaining what you mean by that. But it isn't like that.

Maybe they think there is a vicious gang waiting outside and the women will be able to cope?

Tiddlywinks

Bringing your DC up to be polite means bringing them up to offer help and be good mannered to everyone regardless of sex, not telling your son's that they should give more to a woman/do more for a woman than a man for some arbitrary reason about some arbitrary thing where it is not needed.

Surely manners don't mean you just look at sex? How about if it is a fit healthy woman in her 20s, let's say she an olympic athlete, and a man in his 70s with a walking stick who is clearly struggling to walk let alone hold open doors. Is it still ladies first?

It's not as simple as "give up a seat for a woman".

I wouldn't expect an elderly man to give up a seat for a young woman.
I would hope that most people male or female would give up their seat for a pregnant woman.

There is courtesy shown towards others taking into account our different needs of which a lot of things come into play (age, pregnancy status, disability etc) and they aren't apart from pregnancy related to sex. Some people say you shouldn't give up a seat for a pregnant woman as it's not an illness but I've been pregnant and I say balls to that and always give up my seat for them.

I am confused by the question "what attracts you to a man if not masculine qualities" like the PP I like men because I like their physical attributes.

"Snow - well if there are no real differences between men and women, what attracts you specifically to men in first place? Is it just the physical attributes and nothing more? Apart from the obvious, what do you get from men that you can't get from a woman?"

It is called SEXuality not GENDERality.

I don't even understand what being attracted to a gender would look like. I've met women who were butcher than many men, and I didn't fancy them. I find the idea that people claim not to understand how sexuality works without gender roles baffling. What's going on with society? Being heterosexual doesn't mean "attracted to people who meet the stereotypes - masculine or feminine" it means attracted to a SEX.

eg David Bowie and Prince were widely fancied by lots of heterosexual women, while wearing dresses and makeup, because they were sexy MEN

Who said I told them to give females preferential treatment Neiflette?
They are equally well-mannered to everyone.

Busybeez:
"I see no issue with it. I'm bringing up my DS to respect women and hold doors open for them, let them go first, give up a seat on a train for a woman. It's called good manners. If anyone objects he will respond that he's not doing it because they are a woman but that he's a gentleman.

Get over it OP."

Tiddlywinks:
"It's simply good manners, just as BusyBee says. If you prefer the opposite then thank goodness I brought my DCs up to be polite and well mannered."

Neiflette:
"Tiddlywinks

Bringing your DC up to be polite means bringing them up to offer help and be good mannered to everyone regardless of sex, not telling your son's that they should give more to a woman/do more for a woman than a man for some arbitrary reason about some arbitrary thing where it is not needed."

Tiddlywinks:
"Who said I told them to give females preferential treatment Neiflette?
They are equally well-mannered to everyone."

You said, when you agreed with Busybeez

Or don't you understand how a conversation works?

SnowGlitter - OK I agree that respect should be due to everyone, but the point I am making is that actually some women want to be treated as women and if that means men actually being men and opening doors, letting ladies go first, giving up their seat, etc. then why not. I think we have lost an awful lot through wanting to be equal, and time and time again, we find that actually we are not equal at all!

My experience of being treated "as a woman" has way more of a negative side than a positive. They are two sides of the same coin and while we accept / put up with benevolent sexism it makes it very hard to call out the non benevolent stuff.

some women want to be treated as women and if that means men actually being men and opening doors, letting ladies go first, giving up their seat, etc. then why no

FFS being a woman does not equal having the door opened for you.

Where does this stupid idea that men used to open doors for women, thrown down their capes, etc come from?

It’s what men used to do with posh upper class Lady Marys not your regular East End washerwoman!

They are two sides of the same coin and while we accept / put up with benevolent sexism it makes it very hard to call out the non benevolent stuff.

This guy I knew once said “I can’t stand these women who want to be treated as equal but still expect you to open doors for them and pay for their meals”.

So if the two are mutually exclusive I’d rather have the political social and sexual equality please.

some women want to be treated as women

As opposed to what?

I think we have lost an awful lot through wanting to be equal

What have we lost in pursuit of equality?

My husband would always hold the door for me, always walk on outside of the pavement, offer me his jacket if I were cold, defrost the car in the morning and stands up if a woman entered a room when he was sitting. He doesn’t think I’m a lesser person or incapable; he is just being courteous. I don’t feel demeaned; it’s more about cherishing - and that is part of the traditional wedding vows. I suspect I’m treated a lot more equally than many who get cross about doors.
Our elderly male neighbours would always remain standing until women are seated at supper, would be offended if a proffered seat was refused and refer to females as ladies. It’s just how they were brought up.
My son also would offer seats, hold doors, stand when a female enters a room and would go to the bar rather than expect his partner to. His job requires no less of him.
There are bigger things to fret about.

Well I am not an East End washerwoman and I like to be treated well by men. What a shame that some people can't accept that some men actually like to be a gentleman.

some women want to be treated as women and if that means men actually being men...

Argh!!!

But you've still only described courtesies that should he extended to everyone. Nothing you have described - opening doors; offering seats - is sex specific.

On this whole thread I've not read a single thing that has managed to explain what 'masculine', 'feminine characteristics', being a man, being a woman actually means.

I've read the same old gender stereotypes trotted out, but nothing that has actually explained or answered anything.

In fact, the only sex related need I can see would be were a woman is pregnant. But then I would expect a woman to offer a seat to a pregnant woman as much as any man. There are some ridiculously outdated notions about the ways in which people should behave based on the sex of body they were born into and it makes no sense to me. These gender stereotypes have absolutely nothing to do with sex or natural law and they are treated as though they do.

What a shame that some people can't accept that some men actually like to be a gentleman

You’re spectacularly missing the point. Holding the door open for someone isn’t a sign of being a gentleman but a sign of being a polite human being.

Are you saying that you never hold the door for someone? Are you that precious?

I suspect I’m treated a lot more equally than many who get cross about doors

Reductive comment of the day award, duly awarded.

There are bigger things to fret about

Yes. It's not like everyday sexism is a problem that needs addressing at a grassroots level, is it? Oh hang on...

So because my husband is disabled and can't open the door for me or anyone else that means he isn't a gentleman, doesn't have manners? Well if that is how people are judged you can keep it.

Well said, BetteDavisEyes