To think ladies first has no place these days

[Idreamofalandrover]

They've used it twice on the apprentice tonight, why? We aren't in the 50s anymore!

Well I can only speak for myself obviously, but I'm more attracted to men who are masculine but in a civilised way. Personally I'm not into wishy-washy men or clueless oafs who throw their weight around with no consideration. That's just me, but I doubt I'm unique. Many men do prefer more feminine women - this is not rocket science, is it really? Each to their own, but it's not surprising that certain types of men or women will probably attract each other.

But you understand that none of these things are natural law don't you, g1itterati?

I mean, these ideas of what is masculine and feminine are just that. Ideas. Yet you talk about them like everyone will automatically know what you are talking about specifically.

What does your husband do that is 'masculine' specificially?
What do you do that is specifically 'feminine'?

And I'm not into 'wishy washy' people either. But that applies to men and women. Neither do I like people who are loud and throw their weight around 'oafishly', and that also applies to men and women.

@g1itterati
"But I do expect extra things of DH because he's a man that I don't expect from my female friends - e.g. chivalrous behaviour. He wouldn't expect me to act like his male friends by the same token"

So your DH wouldn't want to be around women who had the morals of men?

Is that right?

Men admire women who are timid and unassertive but those characteristics are not something men have ever admired in men?

Men's idea of being feminine are men imposing their ideas of how women should act around men.

Women are not free to be themselves or freely express themselves .. they have to feign to be some man's perfect ideal ..

@SheGotBetteDavisEyes

OOOPS! : (
Sorry about that!

I don't think our particular relationship can be extrapolated to everyone, so I'm not sure how relevant it is really. There are definite aspects of my DH that are masculine, in a physical sense, the way he makes me feel, his perspectives, all sorts of things. The whole set-up of his life has been totally different to mine and still is in many ways.

There are definite aspects of my DH that are masculine, in a physical sense, the way he makes me feel, his perspectives, all sorts of things

Some people who have been brought up with 'ladies first' have certain expectations of how men and women should behave - and how men should treat women and women should treat men.

They also have an idea of how this translates to the house, looking after the kids, 'wife work' and in the workplace.

AsMenDclared No worries, easily done!

AsMen - I'm not sure I understand your point about the morals of men.

I wish I'd never mentioned the pass the parcel now

saga - What about men with no respect for women or self-respect for that matter, who think it's fine to bully women, use violence and whatever they feel the need to do?

What you don't want in this life it to have men do you favours for ulterior motives, all you need is someone to help you out for altruistic reasons, anything outside of that and you are going to be expected to pay them back in some way and be at their mercy.

Don't tell boys to put girls first, that is not manners, that is elitism and don't let males flatter themselves and think they are doing females a special favour...

If you suggest people give someone a helping hand let it be because it is the right thing to do and not because they should expect an reward after, for doing it.

So stop flattering yourselves for doing the right thing and doing it for all the right reasons..
it deserves no flattery what so ever, not your own flattery or others flattering you..
We are not going to give you medals for that.

What about men with no respect for women or self-respect for that matter, who think it's fine to bully women, use violence and whatever they feel the need to do

Why does it have to be women specific?

Surely men should have respect for PEOPLE? It shouldn't be women specific

Men should have respect for other PEOPLE. They shouldn't bully other PEOPLE. They shouldn't use violence against PEOPLE.

The same applies for women as well.

It shouldn't just be about how men treat women.

It should be about how people treat other people.

Unless you think it's ok for men to bully other men, to use violence against them and to have no respect for other men - which I am sure you don't think is ok?

@g1itterati

"He wouldn't expect me to act like his male friends by the same token"

So what does his male friends do that he is comfortable with but wouldn't want to see you doing the same as them just because you are female not male?

saga - we were talking about male female relationships specifically. Being chivalrous does not preclude you treating other men with respect, I would argue it makes it more likely actually. But yes, I do think there are different dynamics in male to female relationships, male to male relationships and female-female relationships BROADLY SPEAKING.

I thought it was inappropriate thing to say on the apprentice. Made me cringe and sigh.

Well he wouldn't expect me to act like his male friends because I'm not a man He has his local friends who he does cycling and rugby with - am I meant to tag along? He has his male work associates who will talk endlessly about business if nobody stops them - I'm not of that mentality particularly. He has his marine mates - I was never in the military. We all socialise obviously, but there are things he can get from his male friends that he doesn't get from me and I feel exactly the same way about my female friends. I think most people are like this?

@g1itterati

You know what manly means to me?
Male Vanity, Cowardice and male elitism!

"Boy, don't throw like a girl, you don't want to be seen one of them do you?

The positive in the culture that is promoted is the masculine and the opposite to that positive in their culture is the negative and is recognised as feminine

How do his male friends act?

This usually boils down to belching and crude jokes doesn't it? Or similar. Man has a pint and woman has a g n t or something. As if what drink you have, has any impact whatsoever on anything.

In order to have men and women behaving in ways that are noticeably different, both sides have to adhere to certain behaviours pretty consistently whether they actually want to or not. A man orders a glass of white wine in the pub, that's his reputation ruined forever. A woman drops a book on her foot and exclaims "fucking hell!" - that's it, she's not the woman everyone thought she was, game over.

People who naturally gravitate towards the behviours and trappings proscribed for their sex really seem to struggle to understand that for others the whole thing feels like a square peg in a round whole, often incomprehensible, like, why can't I have a pint, if I fancy one? Why can't I drive the car if my husband is with me? Or whatever the thing is. That's the other thing - it's not entirely consistent what is for who so even people who try to stick to the rules accidentally break them.

All of the things you list are about interests and personality, not sex, Glitterati.

Women can and do join cycling clubs, play rugby (although admittedly not usually against men as far as I know), talk about business endlessly and join the military. I'm not sure if they're allowed in the marines yet.

Or do you mean that your husband and you both prefer the company of same sex when it comes to friendships, which is kind of a different point.

@g1itterati

You are not talking about what your DH male friends do that he wouldn't want to see you doing,
are you?
Women are known to cycle and play rugby and are involved in all other sports and obviously they are involved in the military as well.

These things are not specific to men
"He wouldn't expect me to act like his male friends by the same token"

So what is this thing they are acting? is it being male, different to you?
Being involved in sport isn't that because women do it to, don't they?

and why wouldn't your DH want to be involved in that, is there something wrong in being involved in it?

It is true Vertical, I don't really have male friends in their own right. I always found male friendships to get more complicated than they were worth tbh. I would far rather have female friends in general.

In answers to your question AsMen, he appreciates women in different ways to men. That's not to say all men and women are honogenous groups, but he would be more attracted to feminine characteristics in a wife, of course he would.

VerticalBlinds
"All of the things you list are about interests and personality, not sex, Glitterati"

As we can see It's a fatal mistake to get those things mixed up as "Glitterati" has

I think it is lovely to see a bit of chivalry. I was in B&Q today - lady buying several bags of slate pieces which were on a trolley - man behind her in queue lifted one bag for the assistant to scan and then offered to take the trolley to her car. I thought this was heart-warming and not something you see much these days. Some women like to be treated with a bit of respect and help - me included.

But what are these 'feminine characteristics'?

I am a woman. Therefore, what I do must be feminine if femininity is a necessary attritbute of being a woman.

So I have my nose pierced; I drink beer; I wear dresses; with DMs; i'm polite; I am kind, considerate and compassionate; I am gentle; I can be softly spoken; I have long hair; I keep my nails looking nice; I don't wear much make up; I sew, cross stitch, crochet and quilt; I play bass guitar...

Can you see, it isn't as easy as saying 'feminjne characteristics' and everyone knowing what that means. It's not natural law. How feminine am I? Where am I losing feminine points? Where am I gaining them?

Or, actually, is there not just one way of being a man or one way of being a woman?

Oh and i agree with the others, the things you described are your husband's interests and his friends' interests. They are nothing to do with the fact they are men

MilkTrayLimeBarrel

That's courtesy not chivalry.

Some women like to be treated with a bit of respect and help - me included.

But no one has said people shouldn't treat others with respect. I don't understand the point you are making.