To pick my child over my relationship?

[MardyMarie]

I have four children, aged 6, 4, 2 and 2 months. I separated from DP 6 months ago because our home life was intolerable. He was like a spectator living in the home and had little to do with the 'nitty gritty' of family life - ok to play occasionally but no good with illness, bedtime, school and nursery run, bath time, discipline ect. He moved to his mum's on the basis that we'd try and work things out but it's just not working. I love him as a partner but not as a fellow parent and I can't see any way of improving things.

The DC cry and whinge constantly when he's around. They all cling to me and don't listen to him at all. If we go out he'll be desperate to hold the baby because the others just won't cooperate with him whatsoever. I back him up but it's just miserable. When he isn't here, they're well adjusted, happy and play nicely together. He doesn't put any boundaries in place and will do anything to avoid having to tell them off yet despite me always having to be bad cop, they constantly push him away.

They all refuse to be alone or go out alone with him so working on relationships 1:1 isn't an option. It's been tried and they just cry for me the entire time. I have never been able to leave the house without children in almost 7 years and I feel suffocated but they are miserable with him and would be happier with a sitter.

He loves them and wants to see them and I would love for us all to be a family but I can't bear seeing the DC unhappy whenever he's here. AIBU to ask of anyone can think of anything we can do to improve things, or is it going to be a case of having to sacrifice my relationship for the sake of the DCs happiness?

Children's needs first of course. Children's wants first ? No way ! Or you will have exactly what you've got. Dcs ruling the roost and dividing parents.

You are the parents. What you BOTH say goes.
You, OP need to cut the apron strings with the older ones especially.
DH needs to be thrown in the deep end.
Kids need to realise that they don't get to choose who parents them. You both do.

Stop playing the martyr OP.
Put your bloody coat on, leave dad with HIS children and get your bloody hair cut. Just like the rest of us did.
I remember my daughter plastering herself to the huge plate glass window in the sitting room -screaming "doooooooont. Leeeeeeeeeeaaaaave meeeeeeee mummmmmmmmmmy" . Left her aged 2 with her dad while I went to have a birthday manicure. .. She and her brother survived. I just kept doing it. He is her dad and has to look after her and she needs to realise that tantrumming would achieve nothing .

Stop letting children dictate your life.

I don't give in and go running when they cry and ask for me. I will say 'daddy is perfectly capable of changing you/brushing your teeth' ect and walk away to leave them to it. Unfortunately DP has often become so worn down by the screaming and refusals that he's walked away from them and then I have no choice but to pick up the slack. I wouldn't say this is undermining him, as many posters have accused me of.

If we didn't come as a package then I don't think he would pursue contact. He wants a family, not to have to work hard at DC who push against him at every turn.

I think whoever said it isn't that they don't like him, it's that they don't feel safe and secure in his parenting is spot on. He's nervous and they sense that.

He doesn't want to spend time 1:1 with them because they get so upset. There's definitely no abuse. Besides, taking them out to do fun things doesn't help when it comes to routine things. Even if they've played with him when out , they'll still absolutely refuse to have him bath them or sit next to them. I will say that that's what's happening but he won't follow through because he doesn't want to cause upset.

MardyMarie - it can't be 100% someone else's fault if in 7 years you have not left the house without your children in tow. Walking into another room and leaving your dh to it, but so that everyone knows you are there to take over, is not helpful. What would actually happen if you were not there to step in at the drop of a hat? Why have you allowed the situation always to be that he goes out with the kids, or has you there to fall back on if doing the mundane home stuff which he finds difficult (because he's never had to follow through on it)? And how much does he get upset about the children getting upset with him because you are actually rather judgemental and make it obvious you think he can't handle his own kids properly?

And tbh, if I were lacking in confidence in my parenting skills and my partner and the self-acknowledged expert in it said, "you are perfectly capable of brushing dd's teeth by yourself" then walked off to another room, it would come across to me as passive aggressive and deliberately setting me up to fail. So I go back to the suggestion of counselling, to see if it's possible to unravel the unhealthy parenting dynamic you have both developed for yourselves. Sending him off to stay at his mum's definitely isn't the way to work through the issues effectively!

This is a very strange situation. Many dads work away and don't have this issue.

I think you got used to being like a single parent...
Doing everything while he was away....and he had no place in the family when he returned at the weekends... because you carried on as normal.

I did think you've contributed to the situation.

He clearly has no confidence and it must be awful for him.

You all go to see Santa or not at all.

So you think I should leave them with him and walk out when neither want to be alone together, the kids have form for being hysterical and he has form for walking out when they become upset?

Round - I reassure the children that he's capable of things and leave him to it. How is that wrong?

So you think I should leave them with him and walk out when neither want to be alone together, the kids have form for being hysterical and he has form for walking out when they become upset?

Yes. Yes, I do.

Not initially. More day trips that you do as a family first (and him coming to Santa is non-negotiable), but within the next month or so, certainly.

And family counselling.

Yes to parenting classes

So you think I should leave them with him and walk out when neither want to be alone together, the kids have form for being hysterical and he has form for walking out when they become upset?
Yes, but it needs to be planned. Tell your kids that you need to go out on your own because you're having a meeting with Santa little helpers and they can't be there. Speak with your OH about him organising something with them whilst they're away. Have something planned if they get upset, ie. a favourite programme ready to be put on the TV with their favourite cuddly toys.

Even if the youngest cries for some time, it won't be the end of the world. Kids will react very differently if they know you are around to knowing you are not. I had to leave for a family emergency one day after I'd dropped my kids to nursery. The situation was similar to yours if slightly not as bad. Still I wasn't able to say good bye to them and I got myself in a total frenzy imagining them crying their eyes out when their dad were going to pick them up and explain I would be gone 3 days. It was in such a state, I had to go back after two days. I rush like a maniac from the train station, was expecting to open the door being welcome by frantic cries (it was bath time), to be greeting by two happy smiley, clean kids, all excited to tell me what they'd done with daddy!

It's horrible but this emergency really helped all around, the kids to realise that they were fine without me, me to see that the kids could be happy without me around, and more importantly my then OH who on his own found it so much easier to be a dad, a dad that he felt comfortable being.

MardyMarie - yes, you should leave your dp alone with them - not by walking out unexpectedly, but by planning it properly and fairly, and then carrying it through. Just walking out of the room and lying to your children about your faith in your dp being able to cope, then coming back in and taking over when he panics and walks out knowing you are there to do just that, doesn't cut it. You are both over-reacting to your children getting upset, as they have no good reason to get upset, they are just playing up for your dp. By always being there to rub his face in the fact that when they get their way and force you back into the room, they calm down, just strengthens everyone's belief that your dp can't do it. Obviously that is untrue - he wouldn't leave them to die if he knew he were the only one there to care for them!

I think swingofthings made some very good suggestions. At the moment, you are saying to your kids your dp can look after them but making it unbelievably obvious you don't even believe that yourself and then you hang around waiting for the inevitable (because you have made the end result inevitable).

* I reassure the children that he's capable of things and leave him to it*
This is very patronising OP, sorry.

Yes, you should plan time for them to spend together and leave them to it. Go do something for yourself. Show them with your actions that you believe he's capable. They will all go through a learning stage but they will adjust. Your DH included.

The thing is, he is NEVER going to learn unless he has to.
Atm, he vaguely tries, gives up and let you handle the situation.
What the children have learnt is that, despite you saying that your DH is capable of doing xxxx, actually he isn’t because every single time he tries, you end up doing it anyway. They just need to scream long enough.

In effect, both your DH and your dcs need to learn that it iS ok for daddy to do xxx and that he is doing things well too. Maybe differently but ok.

If we didn't come as a package then I don't think he would pursue contact. He wants a family, not to have to work hard at DC who push against him at every turn.
That stands out to me. And tbh, it is also HIS decision. Either he puts some effort in and starts parenting (and learns how to do it, eg with parenting classes and by actually DOING some parenting rather than just giving up). Or he will loose his dcs (as in they will not want a relationhsip with him).
Does he realise that and how unhappy is he at the idea?

This ridiculous! The cafe incident spoke volumes about the family dynamic. You were in a public place and that wasn’t the place to expect a change in an established dynamic. It sounds like your children have the measure of their parents. They have successfully exploited the fault lines in your co parenting relationship and their father’s inexperience to monopolise your attention and are clearly sending you the message that they are they are in charge.

You both need to involve professionals in resolving this dysfunctional family dynamic because you both aren't equipped to deal with it on your own. In this instance, I don’t think ending your relationship is prioritising your children (your relationship with him is a separate issue), attempting to fascilitate a good relationship with their father is.

You both need to focus on the family dynamic right now, not on the relationship between you and your partner. Given the current family dynamic, do you seriously think your kids won’t employ the same successful tactics with any new man you introduce them to?

Their father’s nervousness is understandable but it isn’t an excuse, as is your frustration. It’s time for teamwork.

They have successfully exploited the fault lines in your co parenting relationship and their father’s inexperience to monopolise your attention and are clearly sending you the message that they are they are in charge.
This

If your DC are crying for you and you're eventually always giving in and taking it on you to "fix" things, you're not in charge either OP. The DCs are.

I would try a family contract. The older kids are old enough to have an input. House rules and 1:1 or 1:2 time would be hugely beneficial.
My bil worked away when their children were small and he missed out on learning how to deal with the day to day things. He is still a bit hands off now and some of that is down to my sister enabling him because they were stuck in the cycle you're in.
I think a parenting class would be great for him and perhaps for yourself. I wouldn't give up on the marriage if you feel there is something worth saving. This is a really hard time, when the children are so little, it does pass and then you may be upset you chose to be on your own.
I'm a single parent, not through choice, me ex had an affair. It is horrible not being with the kids full time. Please that in mind. If I could still be a family, I would be.

My children naturally gravitate towards me. I’m their main carer. Two are also autistic. Yes my dh doesn’t parent the way I do. And yes I find it frustrating but he has to find his own way. The other day I refused to help put them to bed as I was exhausted and my dh has at least two nights out a week whilst I do bedtime. My 7 year old (who has autism) was screaming she didn’t want daddy to read her a story she wanted me. I could’ve gone up but I didn’t as her dad needs to learn to sort it. Parenting together is hard if you parent slightly differently and the kids are picking up on that. I like things done my way but know it can’t always be my way or all the parenting falls to me. He probably feels underconfident, nervous and out of his depth. If he’s constantly rejected by the kids and you step in or he doesn’t feel he’s doing it the way you want it done it’s probably hard. He needs to step up more and you need to let him. Parenting classes would help but so would being left with the kids. The fault lies with both of you. Taking gender out of it you’ve got the knack and know how to handle it and he doesn’t and needs more help. Some people aren’t natural parents with kids. My dh doesn’t have the patience for the kids for long periods as he’s not used to it. Good luck and I hope you find a solution.

I can imagine with four young children it’s easy to sleepwalk into this dynamic but you are both awake now and hopefully are both prepared to take responsibility for both your contributions to the current dynamic. I am no parenting expert but I have been doing the job everyday without any support since DD was 3 but there have been times, especially in the beginning when I was inexperienced, if there had been opportunities to hand her over to someone I bloody would have and DD was relatively an easy baby.

I’m not making excuses for your partner but if I had been absent from parenting as much as he was in the beginning, coupled with challenging behaviour, I could imagine myself looking for escape routes.

Leave them to it, your partner and your children will never get used to him being the parent in charge if there’s an escape route for either of them. Everyone will benefit from a more balanced dynamic.

So you think I should leave them with him and walk out when neither want to be alone together, the kids have form for being hysterical and he has form for walking out when they become upset?

Yes !!! Of course you should. In the same way most of us have when young children wail for their mother rather than their father. (Which is absolutely normal if mother is the primary carer) . The problem is that with you have always given in to them. Don't do it !
Tell them you are going out and Daddy is looking after them. Don't make it a huge deal and don't give it a long build up whatever you do. Just say . ' I need to go get some shopping ' 'I'm going out and Daddy is looking after you' . With that , put your coat on , peel the children off you. (You WILL need to do this) tell them you will be back when the little hand is on the 2 (or whatever) and go out for an hour.
What will happen ?

Possibilities are ;
1 All children will wail and flail on the floor for an hour. They will not be consoled as EVERY previous time you have tried to let their dad parent them, you have stepped in. They will be waiting for this. They may well wait the whole hour.

1. You DH attempts to console them. Is ignored. They continue to wail and flail but give up and watch telly with him after half an hour.

No actual harm comes to anyone.

Repeat daily adding 10 minutes to each absence.

They will then learn that they cannot control who parents them and as pp said, exploit the fault line.

I don't step in, though. He tries to brush their teeth, for example. They kick up a fuss, ask for me, come to me. I say I'm doing X, daddy is doing teeth. They kick off some more and he at least walks away or at worst walks out altogether. I can't then not brush their teeth - someone has to. I can't leave the house every time he tries to do something so there isn't the choice of having me.

We had a similar emergency situation when the baby was born actually swing. I had to be transferred to hospital after the home birth. DP took the DCs to his mum's and left them there.

He cannot walk out on them, that's really bad!
Does he even like them himself?
My DH has issues with taking a hard line on anything with our boys - for instance, when DS1 was about 2 and had a horrible virus, he was supposed to be taking painkillers to bring his temp down (hospital advice) but he was in such a state he didn't want to take anything. Dh would NOT help me administer the drugs, he just walked off, saying "if he doesn't want it, don't force him". Totally shit incompetent attitude - you don't just "give up" because you can't deal with the upset, you toughen up and bloody well get on with it, just like we have to!

So if your H is doing that sort of crap, then he desperately needs help with his lack of parenting skills - just telling your children and him that he "can do it" isn't going to work, because none of them believe you.

Personally, I would get cross with all of them if my children came whining to me about wanting me to do their teeth and my dh gave up on helping them... I wouldn't do their teeth for them, as that is letting them all off the hook. You are talking about a minor issue as though it is life and death, but it's not, it's just their teeth. If they don't let Daddy do it and behave themselves for him, then they have to face the consequences of their bad behaviour, not just have Mummy brush their teeth for them and Daddy slink off with his tail between his legs. I'm not seeing why you feel you are forced to react the way you do any more than your dh is forced to react the way he does - you have all got stuck in your unhealthy default positions and need rebooting (or in your dh's case, a bit of a boot up the arse!).

As long as your children think they can negotiate and manipulate the involvement of their father, they will. They kick off because it achieves the results they desire. This is a family dynamic problem and yes your partner contributes significantly to this but as it’s your attention they want to monopolise, your contribution is significant also. Your baby will learn from the older ones and the cycle will continue if you don’t start working together.

What are the penalties of ‘kicking off’? Them only wanting you isn’t some badge of honour that you can say ‘look I must be doing something right’, it’s a dysfunctional dynamic that feeds their control issues.

It is very unfortunate that this dynamic has been allowed to become so ingrained as it has only made it a harder to correct but it should not be left to fester further. Get professional support !

Tell him he needs to stop walking away from his kids the minute it gets hard if you always have to step in the kids will always expect you to

Parenting classes... Your family, as a whole need help to work effectively