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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Only 41% want to brexit now, time to vote again asap

611 replies

Idreamofalandrover · 16/12/2017 22:25

www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1EA0Q6

Biggest swing towards remain now people are smelling the coffee

OP posts:
Ghostontoast · 18/12/2017 11:23

Doesn’t anyone think that the rest of the EU are thoroughly sick of us - I doubt they’d let us stay if there was another referendum.

JacquesHammer · 18/12/2017 11:45

Not very democratic though is it. Much like the EU

That's the very essence of our democracy. It's representative not direct.

It is absolutely totally democratic

lessworriedaboutthecat · 18/12/2017 11:48

Lets be honest I don't think the EU wanted us to stay in the first place really did they and since the vote they've offered us nothing in the way of a compromise. We were just an obstacle in the way of their project of ever closer union and centralisation.

VladmirsPoutine · 18/12/2017 12:12

Not very democratic though is it. Much like the EU.

What annoys the most about this referendum is it has revealed just how little, if anything, most people know about the functions and operations of the EU and its various institutions. These are discussions we should have been having prior to the vote, not after the fact. Because the same old tropes are being rolled out in every discussion which are patently untrue e.g. 'well I didn't elect Juncker'

makeourfuture · 18/12/2017 12:15

they've offered us nothing in the way of a compromise.

The things Cameron asked for pushed up against Treaty obligation. Treaties we helped draft and supported. The Treaties were not "done to us", we were part of the process.

Freedom of Movement is important as there can be no free trade without freedom for workers to move about.

This was known.

makeourfuture · 18/12/2017 12:18

most people know about the functions and operations of the EU and its various institutions.

Absolutely.

VladmirsPoutine · 18/12/2017 12:20

In a post-Brexit UK, the UK will have to follow EU law to the letter and not get a single say on it. Imagine it like this, having decided that you're divorcing your husband, he now gets to govern your life, he will tell you what you can and cannot do; and there's nothing you can do about it.
Here's to regaining our sovereignty! round of applause

Humpsfor20yards · 18/12/2017 13:07

Lets be honest I don't think the EU wanted us to stay in the first place really did they and since the vote they've offered us nothing in the way of a compromise.

Can you give us some examples? What compromises were you expecting?

lessworriedaboutthecat · 18/12/2017 13:11

I wasn't expecting much in the way of compromises tbh however have they offered anything at all ?

Humpsfor20yards · 18/12/2017 13:13

I don't get what you mean. Were you expecting the EU to try and persuade us to stay?

LoveInTokyo · 18/12/2017 13:14

Presumably nothing short of the EU agreeing that free movement no longer applies in respect of EU nationals wanting to move to the UK, that the UK Supreme Court could overrule the CJEU (unless it is a British party wanting to enforce its rights against a foreign party), and that we should no longer have to make a financial contribution (but can still benefit from EU funding and participate in all the cultural and science programmes).

LoveInTokyo · 18/12/2017 13:20

lessworried, why would they offer us anything at all since the vote? We're leaving. What on earth would be in it for them?

As for before the vote, we already had tons of opt outs and a substantial rebate, and we had a legally binding commitment that "ever closer union" didn't apply to us. It is very difficult to see what more they could have offered us short of agreeing to let us keep all the benefits of EU membership whilst being allowed to shit all over the rules the rest of them have to comply with.

But if you've got any ideas about what they could have offered us to stay, I'm all ears.

makeourfuture · 18/12/2017 13:33

short of agreeing to let us keep all the benefits of EU membership whilst being allowed to shit all over the rules the rest of them have to comply with.

This is it in a nutshell.

And we have every opportunity during treaty conventions to shape the way we want things to look.

The fact of the matter is that this is not about EU Treaties and such at all. David Cameron just wanted to solidify the Tories. And it went to hell in a hand cart.

VladmirsPoutine · 18/12/2017 13:52

I have reached the conclusion that the problem with democracy is not its process, but that it assumes too much of citizens.
I don't care if that makes me sound elitist or conceited or whatever but it's true.
Leavers, including on this thread, have zero basis in their assertions. They ask questions which could be easily answered by a cursory google search. Why is the onus on everyone else to 'prove' the case? Indeed even if I were to oblige which I have, they have not one idea what any of it really means because they haven't taken the time to inform themselves. Whether or not they are in support of the EU in this instance is a moot point - the fact is they need to be informed about it in order to have a credible view of it.
There was another thread in which someone was ardently defending their position that the EU is entirely a waste of space and their reasoning was because they are Welsh. So thus I asked about structural funds.... they asked me WTF I was on about. Case closed.

specialsubject · 18/12/2017 14:00

One of our problems is that we were stupid enough to comply with EU rules . millennial mn won't remember the French beef thing, and probably hasnt worked abroad and seen what goes on.

Would have been much easier to stay in and ignore what didn't suit. Might have enough power stations that way.

LoveInTokyo · 18/12/2017 14:04

Sorry to play the "actually this is my specialist subject" card again so soon, but I live in France.

LoveInTokyo · 18/12/2017 14:05

You're not wrong though. We were definitely more strict about complying with the rules than some other countries.

Moussemoose · 18/12/2017 18:13

VladmirsPoutine

I have reached the conclusion that the problem with democracy is not its process, but that it assumes too much of citizens.
I don't care if that makes me sound elitist or conceited or whatever but it's true

Rather depressingly I think I agree. On other threads posters disagree but the arguments on both sides are sound or well argued or I need to research to check or something that makes me pause.

The Brexit threads follow a depressing trend. A pro Brexit posters makes a point (about democracy) other posters point out the errors. Pro Brexit disagree but put forward no proof or easily disproved points. The flimsiness of the evidence is pointed out. Pro Brexit shout about elitism and how no one understands them.

BlindYeo · 18/12/2017 18:41

Vladimir so you are intelligent enough and educated enough to vote wisely but those who disagree with you aren't really intelligent or educated enough to wield a vote properly?

You do know what that sounds like don't you?

Men used to think that about women having a vote. Rich landowners used to think about letting poorer people have the vote. White people in the US used to think that about black people having a vote.

It is a distinct tendency of dictators to think that they make such sensible decisions that democracy is surplus to requirements.

LoveInTokyo · 18/12/2017 18:45

There are different forms of democracy though, and we are supposed to live in a representative democracy where the people elect parliament and parliament is sovereign.

VladmirsPoutine · 18/12/2017 18:48

BlindYeo And you'd be right had that been what I said. c.f:

They ask questions which could be easily answered by a cursory google search. Why is the onus on everyone else to 'prove' the case? Indeed even if I were to oblige which I have, they have not one idea what any of it really means because they haven't taken the time to inform themselves. Whether or not they are in support of the EU in this instance is a moot point - the fact is they need to be informed about it in order to have a credible view of it.

Emphasis on: "Whether or not they are in support of EU {membership} in this instance is a moot point."

Ergo, it's your (democratic) right to vote however you like but it wouldn't be remiss to know one or two things about it, in fact it might even promote deeper discussion.

GranolaLover · 18/12/2017 19:22

So every time peoples opinions on something change a year after the initial vote,we have to have another vote on it? Hmm

LoveInTokyo · 18/12/2017 19:27

Well for something as big and complex and permanent as leaving the EU, if there is evidence to suggest that people's opinions have changed about leaving before we have even left, it would be a good idea to check, yes.

makeourfuture · 18/12/2017 19:35

So every time peoples opinions on something change a year after the initial vote,we have to have another vote on it?

Or we could just ignore the pamphlet. Referendum was only a straw poll.

Moussemoose · 18/12/2017 20:48

GranolaLover

So every time peoples opinions on something change a year after the initial vote,we have to have another vote on it

Yes in principle which is why we have regular elections. In many countries where power is more separated people vote in national elections of some form every 2 years. American for example.

In democracy people change their minds so your have regular elections. We are a representative democracy where the people we elect make their own decisions. We are not a direct democracy (like Switzerland) where referenda are used. When referenda are used regularly the majorities needed for change and the further implications are made clear prior to the vote.

The UK's inexperience at using referenda wisely is exemplified by this debacle.

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