Christmas cards and women changing their name upon marriage!

[mulledoverwine]

I am recently married and did not change my name.

I have been writing out my Christmas cards tonight and have realised that only 1 other woman I am posting to hasn't changed their name and another double barrelled theirs (he didn't).

Everyone else is Mr & Mrs {His Initial} Patriarchy.

I am quite enraged by it all! I have become more feminist as I have got older as I have started to question the norm more. Especially since reading the feminist boards on here.

I just want to shake every woman who changes their name!!

I am going to get slaughtered here aren't I??

@stevie69 I asked that question earlier in the thread and was replied to by @MirriVan who replied thus:

VladmirsPoutine I explain why it is not currently a feminist or free choice to take your husbands name in my post on page 16. One day, hopefully it will be both. But we aren't there yet.

I did read said post on page 16 which didn't enlighten me, but I did have a good laugh at the ernest way in which MirriVan responded, particularly the "One day, hopefully it will be both. But we aren't there yet."
So no movement on that front, we're still waiting for our day of liberation.

PoorYorick

You are correct when you say you're taking a man's name from somewhere.

We are until we stop it. Then the names become ours. When women pass on their names to their daughters we will own them.

While the status quo remains nothing changes and we have the names of men. If more women made a small stand and kept their name and passed it on to their daughter then they would be our names.

Or we can stand passively in the face of tradition and be 'good girls'. Personally, I say fuck that to being a good girl.

For me the crux is that I understand what is happening within that choice.

And yet you don't - or refuse to - understand what is happening within a different choice made by other people.

If it's feminism we're talking about, I would far rather take a married name than do more than my fair share of shitwork at home.

It would have taken constant effort and grief to get him to pitch in.

It took me absolutely no "effort and grief" to change my married name. My husband would have respected my decision either way. I had my reasons for doing it. It was not oppressive in the slightest. Your choice, however, is - you admit you don't really want to do it. Your younger self would be 'dismayed'. Effort, grief, dismay - these are absolutely not words I would ever use to describe my choice to take a married name.

Choice is feminist, and I made a choice. You, however, didn't really - you were ground down until you gave way. That's not a free choice.

I am totally comfortable with calling my choice feminist, but for the sake of argument, let's just say it isn't, and nor is yours.

If, for the sake of argument, we say both our choices are anti-feminist (mine absolutely is not, but let's just say it is for the moment). Why is yours somehow preferable because you 'understand' it? Taking on too much shitwork is, to me, much more oppressive than a name change. Why do you not credit me with the intelligence to 'understand' what I'm doing too?

On that note, I do agree with you though that one can make anti-feminist choices and still be feminist. I don't think it is possible to live our lives in an imperfect world full of imperfect humans, and be perfectly aligned to our principles at all times without exception.

When women pass on their names to their daughters we will own them.

They will be passing on their own patriarchal line of names! Unless they chose a name from the phone book.

This is reminding me of a recent poster who was anti marriage because of what it used to be 100 years ago. She wanted an entirely new institution, with all the same benefits and protections as marriage, but with a different name so that she could pretend it didn't have the same roots as the identical, existing system.

What a colossal waste of time.

I do find it odd that people buy into traditions like being given away and taking their husband's name, then they're surprised when their husband expects them to follow traditions by doing all the housework and the childcare.

Why do we expect men to challenge tradition if we don't do it ourselves?

PoorYorick

Yes they will be the patriarchal names but new traditions have to start somewhere. A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

So we start a new tradition or we are 'good girls'. I have no wish to 'behave' properly to make a man happy.

I changed my name and also was "given away" at our wedding. I understood perfectly the "crux" of what was happening within those choices. It's a personal dynamic and I accept how it doesn't always square with feminist perspective. The pp CartedOrElephant would probably say I'm a victim of a "false consciousness". Well maybe I am, maybe not, but I'm not going to deny how I feel. Relationships are about instinct and emotions over and above anything else and this is probably why certain "patriarchal traditions" persist. It's not that people are too dim to understand.

So... The plan is to switch patriarchal naming for matriarchal naming? No matter what? Just do it. There may be personal reasons to give the paternal name to children. One surname sounds better than the other for one, flows nicer with chosen names fo children, the woman hates her last name (I recall one overweight friend whose maiden name is Whale for example and it led to bullying), or simply to use a name that will die out.

But none of that matters apparently.

Neiflette

But none of that matters apparently

I'm sorry please direct me to where I, or anyone, said you had no choice.

Of course you have a choice - l just wish women chose to empower themselves and their daughters making strong statements about their place in the world. Or can do what you're told and make nice pretty decisions.

Up to you however you justify it.

If you changed your name to his just because you wanted to, knowing that it would perpetuate a norm which disadvantages those less lucky who would prefer to keep their own name, that's your prerogative, but it isn't feminist.

I just can't get on board with this argument. Not least because of the angst with which you seem to be presenting your arguments. Why is yorick or any woman for that matter responsible for what other women choose to do - why would her choice "disadvantage" a woman who wanted to keep her own name? Tbh, if a woman feels like she wants to keep her own name but is being bullied or coerced by her fiancé then she probably shouldn't be marrying him at all in the first place.

Choices aren't made in a vacuum, granted - but you really need to stop being the arbiter of other women's choices wrt their names. You seem to have appointed yourself judge and jury.

VladmirsPoutine

Pointing out that choosing to accept the norm and therefore validating this norm and that this will impact negatively on others is not "angst filled" it is simply saying it how it is.

If you support the (unjust) status quo that is entirely your right and your decision just don't pretend that supporting something that is based in the patriarchy is anything other than an anti feminist choice.

You made your anti feminist decision the very least you can do is own it.

Mousse

It doesn't empower my daughter any less to have her father's name. I think it would be pretty selfish of me to give her mine and let his family name die.

I was given my mother's surname. Changed it to my step-grandfather's because I lived with him. No less empowered for it.

If you love the name Arthur but your last name is Sleep... Of course you would give the father's name instead, if the name Arthur was special to you etc.

If it were the other way around, I would expect my name to be given.

You're "justify it however you like" seems to imply you think the core reason for giving paternal names is patriarchy, no matter what the individual context. I like my maiden name, won't be giving it up when married, so it's not a handmaiden thing or whatever.

It's fair to say the tradition is steeped in patriarchy.
It's not fair to imply that every individual does so because of patriarchy.

Mirrivan, I understand your comparison perfectly. But I'm disputing that you're smart enough to "understand" your choice, and I'm not smart enough to "understand" mine.

The reason my choice causes me no distress isn't because it's conventional. Your "choice" is at least as conventional as mine (do you really think it's unusual for the woman to hold the position of chief shitworker? I'd say it's probably more common than women choosing to keep maiden names.)

The reason my choice causes me no distress is because it doesn't put me in an 'oppressed' position, for want of a better word. I'm not losing an unfair amount of my time and energy daily in clearing up after other people who are capable of doing it. I just go by a different name, one that, for various reasons, I sincerely prefer to have. Please give me credit for being at least as able to "understand" this choice as you are able to "understand" yours.

it's better that I know that I'm in a shit situation due to sexist norms, rather than thinking I have a totally free choice.

Well, I'm not in a shit situation. I'm sincerely happy to use my married name. And I did have a totally free choice. Nobody wore me down into it. Again, I'm as intelligent as you are, and as able to "understand" my choice as you are able to understand yours.

(Yes, I'm lucky that my husband is a good man. I did end a relationship years ago with a man who made it clear he would have had a problem with me not changing my name. That wasn't the sole reason I broke it off, but it was part of a larger context whereby I realised I would be forced into a dynamic that I would have found oppressive.)

I've plumped for the less hard option of two shit options

That's your choice, your situation. I would never judge. But it's not comparable to my name change. I had a true choice, and one was infinitely preferable than the other. I made it, I'm happy and it's had no negative effect on my life except that some people on the internet don't like it. I can totally live with that.

But that's not a free choice. Because you weren't aware of all the issues.

Again: I'm as intelligent as you are, and as able to "understand" my choice as you are able to understand yours. Please do not patronise me like this.

The reason my choice makes me happy and yours doesn't is because mine really was a choice, and yours was not. I'm NOT judging you - we all do the best we can in our situations. But I'm asking you not to insult my intelligence.

Moussemouse, they're men's names. However far back you go, at whatever point you freeze it, they're men's names. Christ, even if you do choose from the phone book, they're all men's names. The system's just been in place too long for us to fight that particular battle. They're all men's names, any originally female names have been long lost. It's not massively feminist to choose one man's name over another's. (Though I like being named with the man I chose).

Perhaps the system of the future is to meld names together as much as possible (Mr Black and Ms Hill can become Blackhill, Mr Simons and Ms Patterson can become Simonson or something, I don't know). That's honestly just about the 'fairest' suggestion I can think of. And for me personally, I just don't care that much.

Maybe I'd give more of a toss about the name if I came from some great dynasty like the Rothschilds, but I don't.

So we start a new tradition or we are 'good girls'. I have no wish to 'behave' properly to make a man happy.

That's kind of cute.

I flip back and forth on keeping my maiden name when I marry. On the one hand, I will be the odd one out, on the other... It's something I fought to change once, so why give it up?

I mean if it was something like Flannel/Bashbottom I might give it up though.

Of course you have a choice - l just wish women chose to empower themselves and their daughters making strong statements about their place in the world.

I assure you I have a place in the world outside of my marriage. There are a lot of things I do and enjoy and influence that would remain if I divorced or were widowed. The word that names me is really the very very least of it.

If the name to which you're born, over which you had no choice, the name that depends on all the men in your history, is the only thing you've got to make a strong statement in the world...do everyone a favour and just stay in bed.

I have sympathy OP. I have never changed my name. My kids have my name as their middle name. I bloody LOVE having a different name to my kids, especially at school.

If anyone deigns to call me Mrs DHname I give them short shrift. It is ace.

My DH does not care A JOT.

" I bloody LOVE having a different name to my kids, especially at school."

Why? Do you enjoy making people feel uncomfortable because they get your name wrong? Do you deliberately do this to trip people up? Why?

PoorYorick

the only thing you've got to make a strong statement in the world

I didn't say or even imply it was the only statement a woman can make. It is one of many choices we make. So why make the conventional choice - live a little - be naughty.

And again, yes I know they are men's names but you can make new traditions if you try. You can change tradition if you challenge convention. Or you can do what you're told like a good girl.

I didn't say or even imply it was the only statement a woman can make.

You most certainly implied it. Certainly you put a lot of importance on it.
You call it a 'strong statement' whereas to me it's just a word - a word that ultimately has no significant meaning, which we do nothing to earn, and which is defined by men whatever we do by this stage in the game.

So why make the conventional choice - live a little - be naughty.

Oh my bloody God. I absolutely support women's rights to choose whatever name they want, but if you really think keeping your maiden name counts as 'living' and 'being naughty', you're more sheltered than a tortoise.

yes I know they are men's names but you can make new traditions if you try.

You can, but they're still based on men's names, which is why I think it's a pointless exercise in semantics and nothing more.

It's probably the kind of thing that would satisfy you if keeping your dad's name, the same name you've had all your life, is your idea of world-tilting rebellion, though.

Mirri, I am reading your responses, and I understand them, and I simply don't agree with them. And I don't like the way you're insulting my intelligence.

I'm actually being incredibly restrained in my responses to you because you sound sincerely unhappy. But if I'm honest, I really really do not like being told I don't "understand" my choices or am "unaware" of issues by a woman who gives up too much of her time to do men's shitwork yet objects to married names being "conventional". And yes, I do understand why you shared that story, but it doesn't change how I feel.

That's about the nicest way I can think of to put it.

So why make the conventional choice - live a little - be naughty.

Good lord, what a ridiculous thing to say. There's nothing " naughty" about it at all. I hope you don't raise any daughters to think it's anything other than a normal mundane choice.