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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Dealing with a hoarder

146 replies

Flippertyjibbetty · 11/12/2017 19:47

Relative has had a heart attack.

She is a crazy hoarder. I don't think she can go back to her flat while recovering. She shuffles from room to room- about a foot's clearance in living room, kitchen, has limited use of the bathroom. Haven't seen bedroom but she doesn't have heating because it broke at some point and with the hoarding she can't have someone in to repair it. We're talking years without central heating btw.

I'm about to have a baby. No one else can sort out this relative in the family.

Need advice on how to help them. I don't think a private company who will come and clear stuff will help because she won't allow stuff to be thrown out.

I am about to go on mat leave. Which frees me up to sort through it but then I don't think it would be safe to take the baby.

In the interim she's going to have to live with us or we'll have to sort somewhere for her to live.

I want to make it as stress free for her as well, I can't stand her but don't imagine that it will be easy after a heart attack. Which is my concern about throwing money at the issue and hiring someone in.

OP posts:
yelpforhelp · 12/12/2017 06:36

Sorry forgot about space line after paragraphs for easy reading Blush

OnTheRise · 12/12/2017 08:12

OP, I'm adding to the chorus that hoarding is a mental health issue, and very difficult to deal with. If you do manage to clear her flat it will be full again in no time if she doesn't get help; and even if she does, it's something that is extremely difficult to control and manage.

Don't, whatever you do, allow her to move into your cottage, even temporarily. She will start hoarding there.

Tell the hospital what she's like, even if your husband disagrees. You can ask that they don't tell anyone you've told them. And then stand back. Don't pay for her to go to a hotel when she comes out, she has a home she can go to. It's hard, but this is not a problem you can resolve for her.

Whensmyturn · 12/12/2017 08:27

No experience of trying this but would it help to put some of her things in a storage unit. Just thinking that this is letting go a little and eventually might allow her to throw these things away. In the short term it's not so final.

greyfriarskitty · 12/12/2017 08:58

I will try and keep this as short as possible but it will probably turn into an essay. I have been there, and I've done a lot of finding out since then. As previous posters have said (apologies, I haven't read every post mostly yours) hoarding is an intractable and impossible situation.

Two key things: it's very hard to change hoarders and the professionals are starting to advise that you shouldn't, anyway.

Hoarding is very hard to alter/cure. Years of therapy result in only 20% of hoarders improving, and those are the ones who want to change. The rest are pretty much going to stay that way whatever you do.

But as pp have mentioned above, if a person has 'capacity', i.e. the mental ability to make decisions, then their choices have to be respected. Even if these are unwise. There's a really good blog post on it here by someone whose job it is to decide whether people can be sectioned or not. That post is actually about Diogenes, which is a subset of hoarding, and I'll come back tot hat in a minute.

So increasingly, social services/mental health people are arguing that you shouldn't do a forced clear out or even a total one, but instead work with the hoarder towards 'harm reduction', i.e. making sure they live safely as possible in the way that they have chosen.

Whether Diogenes is a separate thing to hoarding or not is up for discussion, but everything I read about it described my mother to a 't' and it may also describe your MIL too from the sound of it. In which case, you need to proceed very cautiously indeed. These are awkward solitary people - to paraphrase wildly - who would do almost anything rather than lose their independence, including living in a tip. Which means that if they are forcibly removed from their homes, they die far more often than expected. This is what my mother did, when she was in hospital and told she could not come home. (stats: 30% died within two weeks in one study). Google Diogenes, or I can do a longer description of you want.

I went through all of this with my mother and I only wish that I knew at the time that I could not have changed things and perhaps I should not.

So what do you do? Immediately, I would talk, in confidence to the social workers at the hospital. Your DH is right, this isn't a job for cardiac nurses, but they can put you through to the social workers for her ward. Explain the situation and use the words 'unsafe discharge'. Presumably she will need carers but the carers will not be able to come in. Explain this. This will buy you time. I can't stress enough that every single person you talk to will have seen this a million times before and will be as kind and lovely as they possibly can be. Explain, too, that your DH is not facing up to the situation.

You may or may not be able to do this - I have no idea about the distances involved - but if you can get photos, do. Because what will happen next is that your MIL will say that everything is fine, and you need to prove this.

With a week or two bought (hopefully they might discharge her to a convalescent home which saves everyone's face - this was the plan for my mother) you need to decide whether you are going to force her to clear out or just do harm reduction. Social services at the hospital will have contacts for specialist cleaners. They are also always lovely, lovely people and may be able to do a slow, gently clean with her back at home.

But resources for hoarding are almost non-existent. The one set of people who may help (and, because in uniform, your MIL may listen to) are the Fire Brigade. They are v worried about hoarding because it causes fires and makes them more dangerous, and are generally concerned with harm reduction. Could you get them in to advise her how to make the house less hazardous.

Sorry, that's a total brain dump - please do ask about anything and I will explain more.

Flippertyjibbetty · 12/12/2017 09:03

Thanks yelp, on the rise, when's my turn. Useful input.

Will talk to the hospital and see if they can start a dialogue with her.

Husband is taking a couple of days off next week, meant to be to set up baby things but maybe he can use to visit her place and help her start to clear some of bedroom so can at least get some heating in there.

She will stay w us over xmas, ny, but not beyond that.

I will offer encouragement to them both and support with a plan, driving etc, but not offer for her to live w us long term/ in holiday cottage.

Don't think the storage idea will help, whensmyturn, based on what I have read. She has a full garage of stuff already so the distance/ time separation hasn't helped there. But thanks for suggestion- all posts/ ideas welcome as floundering!

From what everyone is saying and everything I had read, the key is that the change can only come from the hoarder. So we can support, but not take over. My immediate concern is the next few weeks, but we're close enough to xmas that a special case can be made I think.

Will support my DH in helping her as much as possible- which ultimately will help him manage his guilt if something happens to her.

Thanks all- and condolences to all who have been / seen similar situations. raises a Wine to you

OP posts:
greyfriarskitty · 12/12/2017 09:08

Oh, one more thing. When you speak to the hospital, spell out which rooms are and are not usable - esp bathroom, kitchen, bedroom. Is she cooking for herself and able to wash?

This is a good way of rating the actual level of clutter, and can help indicate the level of the problem.

Laserbird16 · 12/12/2017 09:41

Unfortunately this seems like a decision where you will be damned if you do (involve social services) damned if you don't. Personally I'd take the hit to your already strained relationship with MIL and get them involved. This is way too much for you to deal with even without a baby about to arrive. Eventhough it may not feel like it to her you are coming from a very loving place and hopefully DH will see that too. Help him get his head out of the sand to do what is needed for his family.

IsaSchmisa · 12/12/2017 10:08

This is your first OP? You're going to feel like you've been hit by a whirlwind even without any other stressors. The best advice in this situation is to protect and prioritise yourself and your baby at all costs. It's great that DH doesn't want her in the flat or holiday home: don't allow any wavering on that. It's imperative that her Christmas stay doesn't turn into anything else. You really cannot be expected to deal with a hoarder and a newborn simultaneously.

PersianCatLady · 12/12/2017 10:20

Who owns the flat, MIL or a 'LL?

MrsPottsTheTeapot · 12/12/2017 10:25

You're all very kind and I'm doing so much better now thanks. What I should have added in my pp is that mumsnet is one of the best places to come for support. For proof, you just need to read through threads like this one. So much practical advice and emotional support. Keep it up everyone. You're doing a great job.

Flippertyjibbetty · 12/12/2017 18:53

Grey- I think I posted my last message as you had posted yours so didn't mean to ignore. Thanks so much for the message and the benefit of your experience and research. Harm reduction sounds like the most sensible starting point. I think there is willingness to change because I think she spends so long wandering around in order to avoid her flat. Will investigate the links you so kindly sent me by PM.

It's partly wanting the company but when we see her it's always 'let's go for another coffee' or she'd get the bus back home with us and then get the bus back the opposite way to get home. So really doesn't want to be at home. When we have let her stay at the holiday home she tends to overstay welcome and asks to stay there, presumably because it's not a horror.

I think she has cooking facilities- but she doesn't cook anyway. Think fridge and kitchen are not terrible. Bathroom is quite bad, living room is the top end of the scale in terms of the picture scale and I haven't seen the bedroom so assume it is like that too- enough space to get into bed and nothing else. And I saw it two years ago so who knows. Suspect the condition of the bathroom has deteriorated- I think she can probably wash her hair and do a sponge bath but I'm not convinced she can actually have a stand up shower in there.

Isa- I'm sure you're right, I know having a baby is huge and that needs to be my my/ our priority. I've had a tough pregnancy and have a history of anxiety/ depression issues and very conscious of the huge life change that is about to happen.

OP posts:
MeadowHay · 12/12/2017 19:06

I haven't read the thread sorry especially as this is such a painful issue for me on a personal level - MIL is a hoarder. DH and I once cleaned the downstairs of her house to make it hygienic and not as much of a hazard, most of the 'stuff' was just boxed up and tetris'd out the way and we were only 'allowed' to throw really manky things out like dirty tissues, empty boxes etc - like she wouldn't even let us throw out years-out-of-date-half-empty shampoo bottles (of which she had tons) etc. Anyway she was really rude and grumpy about the whole thing and eventually decided we weren't allowed to do any more and then the whole thing went back to exactly how it was. She even ripped open all the packaged boxes of labelled things and just left them laying about like not even cos she wanted to access specific things or anything. At the time she wouldn't speak to any of her extended family and DH had just moved out, his brother still lived there but would do nothing to help.

Fast forward a few years and the place is even more horrendous than it was then, on the plus side she is finally in contact with some of the extended family (one brother won't have anything to do with her though) who have helped her with odd things but she will not allow any of us to help her clear out the house or throw anything out.

There is really nothing you can do without the person's consent. They have to be willing to face their issues head on, get treatment for it, and have to genuinely want to improve their living conditions, otherwise there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. We have given up now and at least it's one less huge stress. We have moved back to our home city and before she used to get mad saying we did we always stay at my parents' when we were visiting and why wouldn't we stay at hers, DH was honest and said the place is not a nice place to stay, it's hazardous, depressing, and frankly filthy (well obviously he didn't say it like that). She won't accept that she needs to throw stuff out, she genuinely believes she could just find better storage solutions but that is absolutely impossible with the sheer volume of things she owns! She also will not accept that her house is filthy even though she never does any cleaning Confused. She has been like this for at least 15 years or so now.

Flippertyjibbetty · 12/12/2017 19:10

Meadow hay- that's awful. I think my MIL does see that it's not right and it's just that she's gotten used to it and manages. She has been physically quite well up to this point. She doesn't have the space anyway (1 bed flat) but wouldn't invite us/ expect us to stay.

I'm definitely not going to try and forcibly (or even over enthusiastically clear stuff) - I think she would be just as aggressive as your MIL.

OP posts:
WickedLazy · 12/12/2017 19:14

Social services told us that while my grandfather had the mental capacity, he could return home if he wished. Nothing and no one could prevent him. If he refused services, on his own head be it, so to speak. He would have done just that, had he not died in hospital. He was very stubborn, right up 'till the end. I fear if you "just let ss deal with it" this lady (much as you don't like her) could end up terribly neglected. Hoarders are fragile people really. If you could convince her to go to a nursing home, you could then pay someone to clear the house. It's the convincing her that could be the problem.

MeadowHay · 12/12/2017 19:26

Flibberty I should say as well that she has had extensive contact with mental health and social care support services all her adult life. She has had regular visits from her support worker from the crisis team and council social services ranging from daily to weekly for at least the last 5 or so years, everyone is fully aware of the situation but there isn't anything they can do about it when she refuses help. She has been offered help with packing stuff up to at least make places more accessible through better storage, she had about 2 sessions and then stopped allowing them access to her house.

I feel for you, it is so sad. My MIL has serious and complex mental health problems (BPD, hoarding disorder, depression) as well as physical health problems (poor mobility and chronic pain). We often are unable to contact her for months at a time and when she had no contact with other relatives we genuinely wondered whether she was still alive or not (history of overdosing on medication and other self-injury). None of the relatives 'get on' with her because she usually incredibly nasty. Yet despite that, like you, we feel an obligation to her as family. However without any willingness on her part to improve things, there is nothing more we can do now. If she changes her mind we will be there to help her, but I can't see that ever happening.

Coastalcommand · 12/12/2017 19:36

There are some pretty gloomy views on here. Perhaps it will be more positive? I know a few reformed hoarders, or at least enthusiastic collectors who have change their ways. One in particular did it because she had become a grandmother and wanted to have a clear space for her granddaughter to visit. That's one clear space spread with the help of her daughter who had some nesting hormones and helped with the practical side.
The shock of her illness may also provide a new perspective. Things do get better sometimes!

greyfriarskitty · 12/12/2017 19:54

If she knows that the flat is bad, then that really is a good starting point. My mother sat in hospital insisting that it would only take a couple of grab rails and it would all be fine.

If you can find some good hoarding clearance people, and they take it slowly, it sounds as though there is a chance she will take the help, particularly if the Fire Brigade can do a visit too. But really, do speak to the hospital social workers; it isn't uncommon, they deal with this all the time and they are not just trying to get your mother out of the ward, there are other options available.

MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig · 12/12/2017 21:23

I think realistically all you can do is help her make it a little bit safer and easier to live in and just keep on top of the situation. I don’t know what else to suggest.

Just bear in mind - sorry - that when she dies you will have to clear the entire place. My Fil, in his depressed and weakened state, fell down the stairs, had a heart attack and died. It took us bloody weeks to empty his house of all the clutter and paperwork.

dingdongdigeridoo · 12/12/2017 22:55

Yes, if she’s admitting there’s a problem then that’s a positive sign. Maybe staying with you over Xmas will make her realise it’s nice to live in a clean house.

Storage isn’t a good idea for hoarders. They just learn that they can keep their stuff without consequences. They’ll soon rehoard the house if the other issues aren’t taken care of, and then your you’ll need another storage unit. And another.

RoseWhiteTips · 12/12/2017 23:29

It is a mental health issue, though, and nothing will ever really change. Some of you appear to know this yet, in the same breath, you make negative comments about how they don’t seem to realise etc.
There have been tv programmes where hoarders are frankly made to feel even more insecure by the badgering of others and the intrusiveness of a camera team etc - not to mention gawping Jo Public. It is awful to turn those people’s lives into a freak show. So sad.

paranoidpammywhammy2 · 13/12/2017 00:51

I think you need to step back from the situation and leave it to your partner to deal with. I think you've got enough to deal with your baby.

I am an ex-hoarder from a family of hoarders. I try to help other relatives but it is their choice to live that way and not my business. I have to detach myself from the situation.

Flippertyjibbetty · 13/12/2017 07:50

Talked to DH more who thinks that putting her up in another flat with a fixed end point(4-6 months) will give her the time to recover and clear the stuff. He thinks she will refuse any official assistance and that it's too soon from the heart attack to push on her.

He thinks that because she hates him spending money she will be incentivised to clear the stuff gradually (he'd get her a local studio or 1 bed). This has the benefit of not being an open ended option like moving into our place, although obviously an expensive solution.

What are thoughts on this approach? I can see the risk that in 6m the flat would be the same and he'd have spent 6m rent, but at least she would have been somewhere safe, it will be the summer by then. In a rented property she's not going to be able to get away with hoarding to the same extent.

OP posts:
annandale · 13/12/2017 08:14

I think that's a very generous solution if she will accept it.

I hope that you will retain keys.

dingdongdigeridoo · 13/12/2017 08:29

I assume you’d been renting it in DH name or being a guarantor? In which case, he’ll be liable for damage. In a private rental, she will have to have inspections etc.

I really hope it works out. But is her desire to save her son money bigger than the urge to hoard? I worry he’s delaying the problem. Those six months will fly by, and then she’ll need another six months, and before you know it you’re paying her rent permanently while she hoards both places.

But at least it buys you a little time while you have a newborn.

violetbunny · 13/12/2017 08:29

That kinda sounds like delaying addressing the actual problem...

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