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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Dealing with a hoarder

146 replies

Flippertyjibbetty · 11/12/2017 19:47

Relative has had a heart attack.

She is a crazy hoarder. I don't think she can go back to her flat while recovering. She shuffles from room to room- about a foot's clearance in living room, kitchen, has limited use of the bathroom. Haven't seen bedroom but she doesn't have heating because it broke at some point and with the hoarding she can't have someone in to repair it. We're talking years without central heating btw.

I'm about to have a baby. No one else can sort out this relative in the family.

Need advice on how to help them. I don't think a private company who will come and clear stuff will help because she won't allow stuff to be thrown out.

I am about to go on mat leave. Which frees me up to sort through it but then I don't think it would be safe to take the baby.

In the interim she's going to have to live with us or we'll have to sort somewhere for her to live.

I want to make it as stress free for her as well, I can't stand her but don't imagine that it will be easy after a heart attack. Which is my concern about throwing money at the issue and hiring someone in.

OP posts:
Original poster
Flippertyjibbetty · 11/12/2017 21:14

Laudanum- I think it was when her mother died (not long after my DH was born)- traumatic life experience and stressful experience, tick tick.

She still has the boxes of her mother's belongings, basically been keeping those and everything since for decades now.

OP posts:
Tessliketrees · 11/12/2017 21:14

Not true Tessliketrees. The state can intervene when the person does not want them to, if the person lacks capacity and they are putting themselves at risk (Mental Capacity Act). The state can also intervene if the person meets the criteria to be sectioned (Mental Health Act). There are situations where intervention can also take place under environmental health law

After your last post please don't lecture me on the MCA.

Thanks.

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 11/12/2017 21:15

Mice. Eurgh. I am not sure whether I hate the mould or the rodents more.

To echo others, this is her new level of addiction. It will get back to this level terrifyingly fast.

My DGM could refill entire large rooms within weeks from jumble sales, anything friends were giving away, charity shops, every scrap of food packaging from everything she had ever eaten all washed and arranged. I mean full to a scary height with narrow walkways through. Even her bathroom had the bath full of stuff. You could go to the toilet if you were surefooted and brave. My lovely but doormat aunt helpfully cleared it many times. It never helped. It was like hiding the whiskey from the drunkard, she gets more by devious means from somewhere and is angry at you for moving the whiskey.

MHEP · 11/12/2017 21:15

*I don't want to enrage her/ him by telling the nurses her home is unsafe. Will they do nothing if she doesn't agree- would it need to be as much as a capacity issue before they got involved?

I doubt she would be declared incapable of making decisions for herself (I know nothing about what the thresholds are). She certainly is capable of understanding things etc and making her own medical decisions.*

OP in your position, I would make sure hospital or social services know. From what you've told us, this needs professional input. Seeing a psychologist can help people who hoard, and she can be referred via social services.

No one here can tell you if she lacks capacity on the relevant issues. But a social worker can assess that.

Babyroobs · 11/12/2017 21:16

Hospital discharge team or social services will have to get involved in this type of case. councils have teams that can go in and help but obviously this will need to be done with her consent and sensitively as it could cause her stress and anxiety if not handled properly which is the last thing she needs after a heart attack.

Original poster
Flippertyjibbetty · 11/12/2017 21:17

She's definitely putting herself at risk and it's a fire/ health risk to others.

Will keep talking to DH but she's not going to be in hosp long enough to convince him to talk to SS/ medical staff. Stubborn as her. And I don't want to stress him out further by emphasising the health risks.

If she returns to the flat, is the opportunity lost to get SS help (unless she was hospitalised again, god forbid)?

OP posts:
Gingernaut · 11/12/2017 21:18

You have to.

Most hospitals have some form of Complex or Integrated Discharge Team, ostensibly to prevent what's referred to as a 'failed discharge'. They don't want a patient returning within a certain period after discharge.

Get them involved. Social services, occupational health and physiotherapy all in one package.

Viviennemary · 11/12/2017 21:19

I'd say there is nothing you can personally do about it. I agree let SS deal with it. Don't offer to let her stay with you. You have enough on your plate IMHO. Everything said above is true. Hoarding is a mental health issue and needs to be left to the experts. Hoarders will often get aggressive and blame the very people trying to help them to get rid of their stuff and make their house habitable.

Gingernaut · 11/12/2017 21:20

Once she's discharged, unless the problems are flagged beforehand, there's no hope of getting them involved again, unless she's admitted again. And only if the problem is flagged.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/12/2017 21:20

I wasn't, I apologise for my poor choice of phrasing. Phew! I thought I'd been a bit of a plank. And you are absolutely right, none of the services can get involved if the individual won't take help.

There is no existing criteria for hoarding. Even Environmental Health can only intervene by dint of threat, eventually. If lots of neighbours complain and are deemed to be being affected. But it is still worth talking to the various agencies, if only to get the hoarding and home conditions on record.

Having said that, locally there is a community response. Mainly led by District Nurses who tend to see hoarders regularly. They put their hoarders in touch with local help, no use of the word 'cleaners'. I have no idea how successful they are long term, but they seem to be busy, sadly.

MHEP · 11/12/2017 21:21

But Tessliketrees the state can take decisions on a person's behalf if they lack capacity, via the Court of Protection.

If they have capacity on the matter, then they have the right to make an unwise decision, which is an entirely different situation.

RestingGrinchFace · 11/12/2017 21:21

Maybe pay to have it cleaned out and put in storage-she may not mind the cleanliness so much. I can't help but wonder why you are bothering if you can't stand her though. Has she done something to you? Or is she just annoying and therefore you don't feel that it is right to abandon her in her hour if need?

Gingernaut · 11/12/2017 21:22

She may need help with medication. That could mean help from District Nurses.

A nursing directive has to be set up before a patient leaves hospital, otherwise it becomes an issue for the GP and she/he will only go by the discharge summary, not what the family tell her/him.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/12/2017 21:22

But MHEP hoarding does not mean lack of capacity. I think that has been Tess's point!

Lucisky · 11/12/2017 21:25

I have a close relative who is a hoarder. I cleared his flat 3 times at great emotional and financial cost. It always ended up in the same state after about 6 months. He fell Ill and he was stuck in hospital because his flat was deemed unsuitable for human habitation. I got in touch with social services, essentially I washed my hands of the problem. Believe me I had tried, but it was useless and was dragging me down, which was of no concern to my relative. The flat was cleared by a team (we had to pay, it was around 400 quid) and cleaned. It looked great. He was then allocated weekly cleaners (which are paid for by the local council) and the place is okay now, at least you can walk about. Please get in touch with social services, don't get involved, it will drag you down, depress and frustrate you, and you will be hated for throwing away so called precious possessions. I still have many problems with this relative, but at least I am not wasting my time and emotions on clearing up his filth.
Just to add, we as a family have spent over 2k over 3 years on getting the junk removed on various occasions. It can be a costly business!

Tessliketrees · 11/12/2017 21:26

*But Tessliketrees the state can take decisions on a person's behalf if they lack capacity, via the Court of Protection.

If they have capacity on the matter, then they have the right to make an unwise decision, which is an entirely different situation*

It's like the Ladybird book of Mental Capacity and in no way relevant to what you said which was that Social Services can make decisions on a persons behalf.

MHEP · 11/12/2017 21:27

But MHEP hoarding does not mean lack of capacity. I think that has been Tess's point!

I never said that hoarding means lack of capacity curious I said that her capacity needs to be assessed by a social worker. In my work, I have worked with hoarders who do lack capacity on the relevant issues. But I am sure there are many who do have capacity on the relevant issues. Mental capacity is decision and time specific, not based on diagnosis.

Tessliketrees · 11/12/2017 21:32

her capacity needs to be assessed by a social worker

Why?

Can you think of any principles of any acts that may suggest that this is a problematic approach given what the OP has said?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/12/2017 21:36

It is likely, then, that there is 'tone' being read into posts. I too read your previous posts as saying that hoarders will get state intervention, that SS will intervene and make decisions on a hoarder's behalf.

The reality, as I am sure you know, is that getting effective help into a hoarder's home is really hard... state or family based.

MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig · 11/12/2017 21:37

When my Fil was suffering with depression he was paranoid, wouldn’t let anyone in his home, wouldn’t wash, wouldn’t eat, was clearly starving and dirty. The crisis team tried to help after we intervened but as the doctors decided he had the mental capacity to make decisions for himself there wasn’t a lot we could do. We didn’t agree with his decisions but it was decided that they were his decisions and that was it.

Good luck with it. Do try and leave it to the professionals though, as pp have said. If they think she’s got support they will let you get on with it.

Tessliketrees · 11/12/2017 21:38

Mainly led by District Nurses who tend to see hoarders regularly

Definitely, the DNs can be a fantastic life line and starting point as can the Community Matrons. The problem is if the person has health needs that would make them eligible.

annandale · 11/12/2017 21:39

In the situation I think stating to the hospital team that you are worried how she is going to manage at home as she has no functioning heating and extremely limited space, is really required of you. However I also think that making that statement is enough - if they say they will make an occupational therapy referral. It is strongly likely she will want to go back to her house anyway but you never know - there just might be someone on the team she connects with and ends up getting some help. She might agree to a pendant alarm, or something like that. Even a small change would help.

I remember a poster who managed to get her mother to agree to keep her most important ID documents in a folder somewhere fairly easy to get to in the house, so that when she died, it was at least possible to do the basic things after death before having to clear the whole house.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/12/2017 21:42

I used to work in a community based charity, DNs are absolute bloody rock stars! Having shared an office and a couple of clinics with few, I know full well how bloody grumpy they can be, but, for me, they could be the rudest thing since Ska hit the UK and I'd still think they were fantastic!

What was that NHS headline this week... the £/person spent on mental health? Hideous!

Lucisky · 11/12/2017 21:43

Curiousaboutsamphire, yes it is really hard. My relative, the horder mentioned up thread, only got help because he developed a serious and terminal condition, and he has long standing mental health issues. If he had been generally healthy, but just a messy so and so, he would not have got the help he needed.

Tessliketrees · 11/12/2017 21:46

CuriousaboutSamphire

Indeed, If you can actually get somebody referred into the CMHT (or whatever the CCG call it in your area) they can be amazing too.

The kind of practical softly softly help that OP feels would work can be provided by a community mental health OT BUT it would involve a number of hurdles. The first would (likely) involve getting a referral to the psychiatrist from primary services (hospital/GP).

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