Dealing with a hoarder

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Relative has had a heart attack.

She is a crazy hoarder. I don't think she can go back to her flat while recovering. She shuffles from room to room- about a foot's clearance in living room, kitchen, has limited use of the bathroom. Haven't seen bedroom but she doesn't have heating because it broke at some point and with the hoarding she can't have someone in to repair it. We're talking years without central heating btw.

I'm about to have a baby. No one else can sort out this relative in the family.

Need advice on how to help them. I don't think a private company who will come and clear stuff will help because she won't allow stuff to be thrown out.

I am about to go on mat leave. Which frees me up to sort through it but then I don't think it would be safe to take the baby.

In the interim she's going to have to live with us or we'll have to sort somewhere for her to live.

I want to make it as stress free for her as well, I can't stand her but don't imagine that it will be easy after a heart attack. Which is my concern about throwing money at the issue and hiring someone in.

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Thanks Caglio.

She is recovering well I think from the heart attack-
Complaining about medication etc but taking it. We put her in a hotel for a few nights and she just slept, so I think she needed that after the operation. Shamefully she's just gone back to her flat but anything else was too difficult/ stressful to arrange.

She's going to stay at our place over xmas/ny then go back to her place and then we will gradually take steps (DH principally) to try and help her clear. We shall see what happens- but I couldn't persuade DH to engage with any professionals yet (I think your suggestion was very sensible @RunRabbitRunRabbit but people aren't rational) and so at the moment we're essentially doing nothing about it. He feels v overwhelmed by it all and has heart problems of his own so we all need a softly softly approach!

But I have been persuaded not to wade in and try to fix it all myself which I now see was a terrible idea and would have done more harm than good.

Pregnancy going well thank you- baby seems to be fine and kicking happily. I'm about 10 days off my due date and have quite bad spd so I'm just trying to waddle around as little as possible and everyone is fixed on getting to a healthy birth and past that! Bring on 2018!!

Merry xmas everyone :)

[Cagliostro]

How's things flipperty? I hope your MIL is recovering and your pregnancy is going well

[RunRabbitRunRabbit]

Could you get a private therapist specialising in hoarding and OCD type issues to come and have a look and advise you?

It wouldn't be involving "the system" so DH might worry less. He will have been trained from birth to cover up, minimise and excuse her behaviours so being open will be hard. His assumption that sheltered housing is horrid is a sign that he's been brainwashed to think outsider must be avoided. There is so much wonderful accommodation for older people who can't take care of themselves any more, if you can pay and perhaps you can. My grandfather and his sister both adored theirs.

You can maybe convince DH as a one off, getting the therapist to give you some advice on how to help your MIL best before "the system" does get wind and get involved.

[Flippertyjibbetty]

I asked him if the flat was worse than when we saw it 2yr ago he said it prob was.
He doubted that she's been able to wash properly and thinks that's why she likes staying at our holiday home when we have let her stay as a guest for breaks. We haven't had the holiday cottage (inherited a small but empty place im countryside from a relative on my side last year) that long so that's quite a new thing.

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Yes- she was discharged and at a cheap hotel now for 3 nights. Hospital wanted he bed back. I'm surprised they discharged 6 hours after angioplasty, but assume it's medically safe.

DH wants to do the 6m tenancy thing.

I have suggested clearing her bedroom enough to let her live there safely, with the proviso that she can spend time at the holiday home for breaks (defined breaks, a week each month or during the week so we can still go up at weekends if we want to and can ensure she doesn't hoard there/ it doesn't become open-ended where she is living).

DH upset me a little by saying I was wanting to put her in sheltered hostel or something- as if my wanting to talk to the OT team was somehow my wanting to shove her into something horrible. He absolutely does not recognise the MH element, thinks that her place is so bad because she has 'too much stuff' from their family home (a 3 bed house, her parents stuff, now in a 1 bed flat). Anyway.

I think either of those options will be workable for us. I have made the point that it's not going to get cleared unless she does it (and if in a flat for 6m, apparently there may be one in the same building which I think a terrible idea, I can see that she won't start for months and then the daily list of excuses will start of why she can't make any progress).

[PringlesSmoothie]

tess she is at a hotel i think

[Tessliketrees]

So where is she at the moment?

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Oh and we will talk to her and see what she wants to do- i know several have mentioned that we're not involving her or thinking about what she is prepared to do which is pointless. I take that on board- partly it's that I think she needs a couple of days to recover from the heart attack shock. Partly it's that she's very difficult and unreasonable and will dig her heels in so we sort of needed to think things through for ourselves (well I did anyway- even before talking to DH).

Thanks all for the guidance and support. It's really helped me to think about it more calmly and not feel so overwhelmed with the sense of obligation and not knowing what to do. I realise we're just at the beginning but you've all been very kind and helpful.

Mumsnet at its best xxx

[Flippertyjibbetty]

He did see it about 2/3 years ago (when I last did). Imagine it's worse since then...especially the smell. Good point. I will be ready with a strong cup of tea ready for him when he gets home...

I think he is a bit in denial but mostly just ignorant, hasn't been doing the reading online and research on hoarding that I have recently but also I think he doubts that it's a mental illness. I suppose that's prob what you mean by being in denial!

[tobitcoinornottobitcoin]

I imagine DH may get a shock when he realises what a state her flat is in...

He is firmly in denial isn't he?

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Sorry I have been in work meetings all day with clients and unable to keep up with messages. Annoyingly this meant I could not call the hospital either (tried in the morning until my first meeting at 10am, with no response).

Today she had the angioplasty and despite telling us that she would need to be in for 24 hours they have immediately discharged her. So I haven't been able to get an OT assessment or even get them to talk to her - because DH wouldn't raise it with the hospital and I didn't find out about the discharge until 6pm when I was out of my final meeting.

He is going to go back with her to flat to pick up a bag and take her to a hotel for a couple of nights. We'll discuss what to do with her in that time i suppose.

My baby is due in 4 weeks and I'm working until next week. I've got some hip issues which make it difficult to move around so I'm in no position to help clear the bedroom.

Will suggest again idea of clearing her bedroom enough for her to live there (her and DH). Don't want the hotel thing to become long term. We do have other financial priorities- it's his mum and his money but if it is just going to be 6m wasted rent then that doesn't help anyone (well, except her health in that time and his guilt). But as you say, greyfriar, it may give us all the respite we need given that baby is so imminent. My husband is wonderful but I know the baby and life change is gonna hit him like a tonne of bricks as well.

It's kind of a good thing that we don't get on in a sense because I know that trying to help her clear myself is a pipe dream (even if I didn't have a baby on the way).

No prospect of taking the baby there, ever. Imagining the air heavy with dust and mouse droppings in fresh new baby lungs shudder

[IsaSchmisa]

Good point re not taking baby into her filthy, dangerous home. Don't, ever.

[greyfriarskitty]

I think the flat idea works for you as a family with a baby on the way and so on that basis, you should go for it.

However, I think it would be foolish of you to go into it with the belief that it is going to change anything, and I don't also think that a rented flat will alter her behaviour, unless you can also pay for cleaners to go in every week (and even so...). But, as you say, it is a safer option for now.

You're in an impossible situation otherwise, because it's your MIL not DM, so until your DH accepts the scale and persistence of the problem, then your hands are tied. Were it your mother, I suspect you would have called in the social workers for a chat the moment she got into hospital.

Over the next few months, I think you do need to talk to your DH about the hoarding, the fact that it is likely to be entrenched, and about harm reduction (and getting in professionals who can help her) so that by the end of the six month tenancy you have a plan. Ideally, you'd want to have one in place before the baby is born, but I accept that this process might take longer than that (when are you due?).

But also, what is the immediate plan? You're not going to be able to rent a flat by Thursday, so is she going to be at yours until then? Does she stack up stuff when she is staying?

[MeadowHay]

Yeah I don't think the flat thing is a good idea either, sorry . My MIL actually has two houses that are full, hoarder-style. I didn't say that in my original post because seemed irrelevant but just saying it now so you don't under-estimate the sheer volume of stuff they can accumulate. She's been saying house 1 will be cleared asap so she can move into house 2 because "nothing from house 1 is going with me hardly" - she's been saying that for at least 10 years. Yet she won't let us throw anything out even in house 1...

Can I clarify to PP who said 'it's a mental health issue, people are saying they don't realise the problem etc', I meant she doesn't realise there is a problem - because she doesn't - but I appreciate the reasons for that are linked to her poor mental health. I wasn't trying to attach blame to MIL, I'm sorry if it came across that way - she's really not a nice person anyway so obviously there is a complex dynamic here and it's a painful and frustrating thing for the family, but I absolutely don't blame here in any way for being mentally ill. I have mental health problems myself, though now not as severe thankfully.

[Gingernaut]

You could suggest to the occupational health services at the hospital that they carry out an assessment of her home to see whether it is safe to discharge her to - it clearly isn't. She should then be offered local authority care while she recovers. Don't offer to have her (not to the relative, hospital or local authority). Don't try and 'fix' the hoarding. It's a mental health issue - a form of obsessive compulsive disorder.

⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆This⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆

A thousand times this.

[HopelesslydevotedtoGu]

What will happen if she starts hoarding in the rental flat? If it gets really messy or gets an infestation or mice? Who will pay to clear it out at the end of tenancy and any cleaning/ exterminating costs? Will she want to take the stuff she has accumulated back to her old house, thus it is even more packed with rubbish?

What if she doesn't clear out her home at all? At the end of six months will dh end the rental and send her back to her home in the same state? If she doesn't want to go back to her old house (you said she outstays her welcome at yours) will dh end up extending the tenancy "she just needs another few months to do the clear out" if she is upset at moving back? It's a lot of money when presumably you have other financial priorities, and I could see it being extended.

Will you be expected to help her clear out her home whilst she lives in the rental because you are on mat leave? Tbh I can't imagine her doing it all by herself, even if she was motivated. But you need to prioritise your baby during mat leave, you mustn't take on a big frustrating project which takes you away from looking after baby/ recovering from pregnancy/ birth yourself. I worry that the role of helping/ motivating MIL would fall to you, as dh is at work, and I doubt she would get anywhere on her own.

Whilst his idea is well intentioned, I worry it just delays the inevitable, at cost to your time and finances, and potential to make it worse if she hoards in the rented flat too. I can see it gets her somewhere with heating for the winter though, so I can see why dh is tempted.

Maybe better to persuade her to have one room relatively clear in her current home, so you can safely have a heater in there? Can the stuff from one room be moved into the other rooms, even if they end up out of bounds? Would she keep the one room clear enough just for a few months over winter so she can have a heater through the coldest bit?

What does she eat, is her kitchen usable?

[RunRabbitRunRabbit]

With the flat you would be enabling her to avoid outside help. She has a serious mental health condition. That's not OK.

There is no way she will clear out her old flat. Can you imagine the effort?! It would be unbelievably difficult for a person like you who is younger, hasn't had a heart attack, objects to living in piles of junk and regards the stuff as junk.

You would be setting her up for failure. That's not fair.

If she won't accept any help to clear it out then that means she does not want to clear it out. Like an alcoholic who refuses to go to AA or accept any other help.

Has anyone asked her what she wants yet? Has anyone said "We think your house is not safe for you to move back into, what do you think?"

You and DH seem to be coming up with solutions without reference to what she wants. With a serious MH condition like this, change can only happen if she wants it and actively seeks it.

[deste]

I once dealt with a hoarder who was not allowed to leave hospital till the house was cleared. Once it was cleared he was given support from SS but you have to realise if she has to clear it, she will have to pay for it.
I’m surprised the mice have gone and I would check for an infestation of beetles because I would be very surprised if there wasn’t. Another piece of advice for hoarders is not to recycle till you have the house in order because they tend to have all the recycling mixed in with everything else. Quite often hoarders are happier if you take stuff to the charity shop, if they let you take it out it’s up to you what you do with it.
Don’t put her into a flat, no matter how good the intention. As someone said above, she will do the same there and she will justify every single piece of rubbish that is brought in and the beetles will come too.
As was mentioned above get the fire service to pay a visit if she gets home because they will stress to her how dangerous her living conditions are. Get rid of the papers, cartons and anything else that is inflatable because if a fire started she wouldn’t have a chance. Not only is it is dangerous for her but her neighbours as well.
Have you told her that you will not be taking the baby ever into her house and that she will miss out on that.
I would clear and clean the bathroom before she got out of hospital.
The thing about hoarders is that they insist everything is important or precious but if that is the case why is it all thrown into a heap along with other rubbish.

[OnTheRise]

Talked to DH more who thinks that putting her up in another flat with a fixed end point(4-6 months) will give her the time to recover and clear the stuff.

NO!

All that will happen is she'll fill the new flat with stuff.

The only way to deal with this is to get her help from appropriately qualified people, and to let her get on with it.

You have to let go of the idea that you can help her clear it out, or that she'll be motivated to do it if you do X, Y or Z for her.

She's a hoarder. She won't stop until she understands what's happening. If you try to get involved she will resent you.

[cakedup]

Just a side note on the TV programmes where hoarders are 'cured'. Someone I know was on such a programme, the agreement was that all her stuff was moved into a storage facility and she would be allowed to move it all back in after the TV show. Which she did straight away! Hoarding can't be fixed by a spring clean.

[Figmentofmyimagination]

My mother became like this.

You could suggest to the occupational health services at the hospital that they carry out an assessment of her home to see whether it is safe to discharge her to - it clearly isn't. She should then be offered local authority care while she recovers. Don't offer to have her (not to the relative, hospital or local authority). Don't try and 'fix' the hoarding. It's a mental health issue - a form of obsessive compulsive disorder.

[violetbunny]

That kinda sounds like delaying addressing the actual problem...

[dingdongdigeridoo]

I assume you’d been renting it in DH name or being a guarantor? In which case, he’ll be liable for damage. In a private rental, she will have to have inspections etc.

I really hope it works out. But is her desire to save her son money bigger than the urge to hoard? I worry he’s delaying the problem. Those six months will fly by, and then she’ll need another six months, and before you know it you’re paying her rent permanently while she hoards both places.

But at least it buys you a little time while you have a newborn.

[annandale]

I think that's a very generous solution if she will accept it.

I hope that you will retain keys.

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Talked to DH more who thinks that putting her up in another flat with a fixed end point(4-6 months) will give her the time to recover and clear the stuff. He thinks she will refuse any official assistance and that it's too soon from the heart attack to push on her.

He thinks that because she hates him spending money she will be incentivised to clear the stuff gradually (he'd get her a local studio or 1 bed). This has the benefit of not being an open ended option like moving into our place, although obviously an expensive solution.

What are thoughts on this approach? I can see the risk that in 6m the flat would be the same and he'd have spent 6m rent, but at least she would have been somewhere safe, it will be the summer by then. In a rented property she's not going to be able to get away with hoarding to the same extent.