Dealing with a hoarder

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Relative has had a heart attack.

She is a crazy hoarder. I don't think she can go back to her flat while recovering. She shuffles from room to room- about a foot's clearance in living room, kitchen, has limited use of the bathroom. Haven't seen bedroom but she doesn't have heating because it broke at some point and with the hoarding she can't have someone in to repair it. We're talking years without central heating btw.

I'm about to have a baby. No one else can sort out this relative in the family.

Need advice on how to help them. I don't think a private company who will come and clear stuff will help because she won't allow stuff to be thrown out.

I am about to go on mat leave. Which frees me up to sort through it but then I don't think it would be safe to take the baby.

In the interim she's going to have to live with us or we'll have to sort somewhere for her to live.

I want to make it as stress free for her as well, I can't stand her but don't imagine that it will be easy after a heart attack. Which is my concern about throwing money at the issue and hiring someone in.

[ToothTrauma]

DH’s paternal grandmother is like this. FIL tried everything to help but hoarding is such a stubborn stonewall of a thing. He would organise carers and she would send them away. If he and MIL went round to try and help she’d call the police after they were gone to report burglary. The house was incredibly unsafe, freezing cold, just horrific.

Despite the fact that she is a horrible person, FIL&MIL did offer to have her with them but she wouldn’t go because she didn’t want to leave any of her things.

In the end the ONLY thing that got her out of that house was very ill health leading to hospitalisation and the hospital saying they could not and would not allow her to go home to a house with condemned gas and electric, no free floor space, and space heaters shoved in every corner!

She is in a home now and furious about it but she still won’t entertain the thought of the house being sold and is constantly convinced that she’s being robbed. It’s awful and I really sympathise with you and your DH

[JaneEyre70]

I'd start by asking at the hospital for an occupational therapy assessment for her home - to see how she will manage on her return. I would imagine that would set the ball rolling in terms of professional intervention. If she has no heating, that will be an issue on its own let alone the fall risk. Whatever you do, don't try and clear it for her - it won't help long term and don't let her stay in your holiday cottage. It will look like her flat within weeks sadly.

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Thanks all- I will try/ push DH to ask for an occupational therapy assessment. Knowing what to ask for is really helpful. Will have to be clear with him that he can't say that staying with us is an option (which it isn't really, in that even if she went to the holiday home that would take her away from where I guess she will be needing follow up medical treatment).

To the poster who asked why I want to do anything if I don't like her. She's still my MIL, I don't like her but doesn't mean i wish her dead and don't want my husband to lose a mother/ baby to lose a grandmother because of living somewhere unsafe.

I read that 3% of people have hoarding issues. This must be causing untold misery around th country.

It is as bad as on TV programmes- can just about get into living room/ kitchen. I don't know how she washes in bathroom except with difficulty. Never seen bedroom.

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Tooth- reporting burglary! That must have been so hard to deal w

[Becca19962014]

The experience I had was an elderly woman at church who had a stroke. Her flat was deemed unsafe, so social services were contacted to help. Literally they (I don't know who exactly) went in and threw away all her belongings before she could go home. Everything. All her photographs, ID, everything in the flat, regardless of what it was was bagged up and left in the rain by the road (where it was when she got home) and she was billed for the collection. There was no management or attempt to support, she was deemed mentally fit.

She was devastated, her daughter who took her home said she howled she was that upset - the flat was completely clean, looked like no one lived there.

After that she refused anyone access under any circumstances, including her daughter - it had always been hard but after that it was impossible. She was found dead two years ago (the flat was even worse despite less time passing) after having another stroke after the police were called to do a welfare check. It was a very sad experience to see. I know her daughter complained but was told their job was to clean and make it habitable nothing else.

[MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig]

You might find that she has to give her consent to any assessments. Would she do that?

[Tessliketrees]

Literally they (I don't know who exactly) went in and threw away all her belongings before she could go home. Everything. All her photographs, ID, everything in the flat, regardless of what it was was bagged up and left in the rain by the road (where it was when she got home) and she was billed for the collection

Was the property rented? Could it have been the landlord? I am not clear on what powers they have (it never ceases to amaze me the shit they get away with).

If not the daughter should seek legal advice about this, it's completely illegal.

[MHEP]

Trees I don't see how it is helpful to the OP for you to ask me to prove to you my knowledge of the Mental Capacity Act. I made my point that, under some circumstances, the state can intervene even if the person does not want them to. I didn't say that would definitely happen with the OP's MIL. I would think an MCA assessment is appropriate, based on the limited information we've been told. You and I could have a discussion about whether a MCA assessment is appropriate at this stage, but again I don't see why that is helpful to the OP, as the professionals will decide how to proceed based on the full information.

OP good luck with it all, and the new baby. I agree with what Trees said up thread, that being referred to mental health services would be helpful, and that referral needs to be made by professionals.

OP with that I have said about social services getting involved and intervening. Please don't think that you bringing your concerns to hospital staff would suddenly lead to decisions being made on your MIL's behalf or sudden drastic steps being taken. Any intervention (whether with her consent, or without) would be carefully considered.

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Prob not MsAdora. I think the timeline is too short- if she was going to be in hospital for weeks then she might be persuaded but she's likely to be discharged by Thursday. Imagine anyone would feel the impulse to just want to go home and be left alone, without hoarding issues. She knows it's not fine (because when she does stay with us she massively overstays her welcome because doesn't want to go back to her flat).

I don't have a good enough relationship w her to suggest it to her, has to come from her son, my DH.

I'm going to gently keep trying to persuade him over next 2 days to talk to the staff at hospital.

On the horror story about someone cleaning out a home without permission- surely that wouldn't happen today? How long ago was that/ where, pp?!

[Flippertyjibbetty]

Thanks MHEP- that was exactly my concern (about getting something started that you can't then stop, have no control in).

[Tessliketrees]

Sorry MHEP my point was you shouldn't give advice about something you clearly know very little about. Especially when you are claiming to be a social worker.

I think that was helpful to the OP as you were giving incorrect information about legislation while claiming to be a professional.

Hope that clarifies things.

[Weedsnseeds1]

Not sure if legislation has been repealed but there used to be a "filthy and verminous premises act" which allowed environmental health to serve notice and clear a premises.

[Whensmyturn]

If the hoarding results in mice or other vermin there is legal provision for the filthy or verminous articles to be removed and the property cleansed s83 Public Health Act. This is because an infestation of vermin may/will affect neighbouring properties. This is why the previous posters elderly woman at church had their property cleared out. And yes it is done at the cost of the hoarder. Usually all other means of clearing or cleansing the property are tried first. It's a last resort to legally enforce it.

[Becca19962014]

trees It wasn't rented she owned the flat. Her daughter did complain, repeatedly and got advice but the upshot was all they had time and resources to do was clear it out. There have been other threads on here saying similar things about social services help with hoarding. I'm just making the point it may not be the suitable treatment for her problem others mentioned and could make it much much worse. I don't know the answer, though, maybe things have moved on now.

[Tessliketrees]

Whensmyturn

That's interesting. My understanding of that legislation was that it only applied to the property and not objects within it. I thought if objects within it need to be destroyed etc the local authority had to foot the bill. I don't know though, it's been years since I had any dealings with it.

I suppose it's much of a muchness really, if they had to go in and clean the property the stuff had to go somewhere so maybe the are well within their right to throw it on the curb.

[Tessliketrees]

Becca19962014

That's appalling, I couldn't imagine initiating that course of action with somebody so vulnerable. I was thinking of SS rather than EH when I read it. The idea your friends daughter asked for help from social services and that was the end result is terrible.

[redshoeblueshoe]

What does your DH think of her going back to her flats ? When its currently freezing and she has no heating ? I get he's upset, but really, I would be more concerned about her freezing to death

[MrsPottsTheTeapot]

Hi OP. I've named changed for this as I don't want to out myself. Not sure if it will help but may be something to consider in the future.
When I was going through something similar, I contacted a company called Abacus who were brilliant, however they will probably want to work directly with the hoarder rather than a relative, or at least with the hoarder's consent. Basically they send a truck with 4 people, arrive at 9.00am and work right through till evening with as many trips to the dump/recycling place as they can manage. They will do literally everything and anything that needs to be done. If that means calling in more people or more trucks, or coming back another day, they'll organise the lot. Importantly, they will only work at a pace that is comfortable for the hoarder. I found them extremely sensitive and very very professional.
The drawback however is that they are expensive at about £900 per day for the one truck and 4 people option. I actually only needed a couple of people for a couple of hours since my problems related to extreme OCD rather than hoarding. They don't offer half days, hourly rates, fewer people, etc. Extra people or trucks cost more but I didn't need them to quote for that.
As I said, not sure if this helps at all but thought I would mention it in case your MIL gets to the point where she feels she is able to tackle it (and can afford it).
Wishing you both well.

[TheCraicDealer]

What does your DH think of her going back to her flats ? When its currently freezing and she has no heating ? I get he's upset, but really, I would be more concerned about her freezing to death

This is what I don't get either. I understand that you don't want to stress him but he's a big boy. This is by definition a stressful situation. You're pregnant and by taking this on and not getting him to face up to reality you're just multiplying and transferring those feelings of stress, anxiety and responsibility onto yourself. If he's burying his head in the sand then I'm sorry, but there's eff all point in you worrying about it. You need to work together and at the moment he seems to just think things can carry on as they were once she gets past this little blip.

Have a discussion with him and ask him where he wants his mum to be in five years time. In her flat? In another property? In any property with heating, washing and cooking facilities that she stands a chance of getting out of in the event on an emergency? Then work back and see how you might get there- I say might because like any addiction the person has to want to accept help and even then it's a slog. If you don't try to get her help then soon she'll be on her own in a freezing flat which is so crowded she won't be able to access heat, water or even a bed to lie on. A good first step is OH and adult social services which you/DH can access right now.

Perhaps he's so reluctant to try because he knows it's utterly hopeless. If that's the case offering her the holiday home would be a very, very bad idea. Forget "New Year, New Me", it would be more like "New Year, New Hoard".

[SleightOfMind]

There’s nothing you can do
My DM is a hoarder. It was only once she was literally overrun with rats and neighbouring properties were severely affected that we got any help at all.

She hadn’t let us into the house since DF died, 9 years before.

Us and her lovely neighbours had to agree to the council enforcing a clearance order against her.
It’s not a legal requirement for us to acquiesce but, as she’s a vulnerable yet responsible adult, they were worried about repercussions if they cleared the place out.

She has no idea we did this. She thinks pest control reported her or the hospital after she was treated for rat bites.

It took four men, in full hazmat suits, 9 days to clear that house. I can’t tell you how grateful I am to them and the environmental health officer.

If you met my mother, you’d never dream this was going on in the background. She is an art therapist for a well known charity.

She’s now in a flat 15 mins from us. We try and pop in every day but she’s starting not to let us in again

[SleightOfMind]

Mrs Potts that was a kind, brave and really helpful post.
I am going to keep that company in mind ( I’ve heard horror stories about ‘helpful’ clearance firms) and DM finds it much easier to cooperate with professionals than us.
Hope your life is easier now. Thank you

[PumpkinSquash]

Following this thread with interest. You can't help a hoarder unless on some level they want to be helped themselves.
MIL frequently - "I want someone to help me with my home, I'm so sick of it, I need so and so getting rid of."
Me - going in and starting to clear out because she's asked me to. With her standing next to me, I'd never just chuck out on my own with no say so.)
You get - "But I might need that." "That's his entire comic collection from when he was little!" "That's his books! Games! LP's!" never mind he's not bothered nowadays as if he was he'd have got them
Even without that there's all the other stuff. Recycling piled up, carrier bags, bags piled up in the corner for charity shops but they never actually see charity shops as all good intentions but cannot bear to part with them....
When you can't open your front door properly as there's stuff you ordered blocking the way, or clothes hanging in doorways.
You can try and clean and tidy, but believe me, as quickly as you are doing, they're just as quickly filling it up again.
Needs the mindset tackling otherwise it's pointless.

[laudanum]

It seems as if losing her mother was the spiral downwards, as it would be for many people. It's especially worsened if she's the type to internalise everything, and then have that turn into a hoarding situation. If she didn't talk about the way it made her feel, or felt that she had to just 'deal with it', there would have been nowhere for it to go.

The things she's kept of her mother's, perhaps if she does ever get help for this, she could have those things arranged nicely in a room as a kind of remembrance to her, not a shrine which kind of sounds creepy but isn't. Just a place where she can go to spend time to feel close to her. I've heard of people having goodbye ceremonies to loved ones as a closure thing, it might not help but it's a suggestion. If she's not the type to open up though, that might not be helpful. Please don't put yourself at risk though, you have to put you and your baby's needs first.

[Flippertyjibbetty]

MrsPotts- thank you, that message is really helpful. I will look into the company and hope you are doing ok.

Craic- I have raised it with him, and obviously he doesn't want her living there. He hates that she is in this situation but all he's felt able to do in recent years is send her on little holidays or have her stay in our place for a while (which brings its own complications because she doesn't behave like a guest, she acts like lady of the manor which drives me bonkers).

He has grown up with her hoarding and not being able to use rooms in their family home so I suppose he does think it's pointless. Or rather he thinks that the only person that can deal with it is him- that any outside person will not be accepted by her.

But- he's not equipped to help her clear it. He doesn't have the time for a start- unless he uses his upcoming 2week parernity leave and I'll be damned if that happens. More importantly, he could not do it.

I think it's easy to forget the reality of what it must be like even if you care. She looks normal when we see her and I suppose we've told ourselves that there must be residual heat from other flats but mostly you just don't think about it too much because you can't. She is an incredibly difficult person so trying to help her usually backfires.

[yelpforhelp]

Hi, I’m an OT who has previously worked alongside SW to arrange clearance of patients flat for discharge.
They were moved from hospital to a NHS funded care home whilst clearance was arranged and the person worked alongside the clearance company.
However they were very elderly and had been admitted with a fall and long lie which had been directly contributed by the hoarding issues, they lived in a HA property and the HA would not let them return to it in the current state due to fire risk to them and others in the block, and consequently they agreed to the clearance.
I’ve only skim read the thread so I might have missed some key info but my first thought is what does MIL want? (Does she have husband partner, and what does he think?) Because if she wants to go home like it is and she doesn’t need equipment for her immediate safety (eg walking frame, toileting equip for which there is no room) then there will be a lot of pressure for hospital to discharge her and refer to community teams to review. (I’m presuming she has capacity as nothing I’ve read so far suggests otherwise, but the hospital should do a capacity ax, maybe get husband to push for referral to inpatient liaison psychs as they can do the ax and refer to best community MH team as appropriate) If she doesn’t want to go back to her home as it is then there might be more scope to get services in like my patient had.
Is she in owner occupied or HA/privately rented? If it is rented then they might put pressure on to clear but long term I don’t know how helpful this will be if the route of her issues isn’t addressed.
Really really difficult situation and it could suck more energy than you are able to give at the moment. Look after you and baby.