To be shocked at teacher telling DD to 'hold in' period.

[yaela123]

DD is 15 and her school have a no going to the toilet during lesson time rule, which I completely agree with on the whole as I know how disruptive it can be if people are constantly in and out, and how everyone just uses it as an excuse to bunk off (I am a teacher too - very different environment though)

Only exception is if you have a medical note from a doctor.

Today in one of her lessons DD says she could feel that she really needed to change her pad, she was getting quite worried about it leaking. She eventually asked the (male) teacher if she could go to the loo.

Teacher: No, you know the rules
DD: I really need it.
Teacher: What did I just say?
DD: It's a girl problem...
Teacher: What do you mean?
DD: Umm... I'm on my period
Teacher: Break is only in half an hour, hold it in til then

Obviously those aren't the exact words said but she says it's pretty accurate.
DD is quite shy so did just wait til break (no leakage btw).

She doesn't seem overly bothered but AIBU to be pretty shocked at him telling her to hold it in? Surely even men have some basic idea that it doesn't work like that?

What utter misogynistic BS, LuluJakey.

What is done to address issues these children may have apart from refusing students as a whole permission to use the loo or leaving it up to the teacher's impeccable judgement? Does anyone try to get to the root of the disengagement or the anxiety or whatever else a student may be experiencing? Or is it considered sufficient that the students are corralled in classrooms for set periods of time?

I misses the poiny where i said I was in favour of a blanket ban refusing all children to go to the loo.

You are mistaken in thinking that there is always a 'root cause' other than 'teenagers being teenagers' when the most likely explanation is kids doing the same things we did when we were kids.
I was a good kid but would always ask to go in a certain subject because I'd prefer the wander to thr lesson. Teacher was good, just I didn't enjoy the subject. I was completely timewasting. Kids are kids. They push boundaries, just like we did as kids.

Where there are other underlying issues, I can only speak for my school but we have a full pastoral suppoet team, adaptations for anxious students, stratgies for anxious children, counsellors and mentors employed in house, a designated safe space for certain students if thry need it, a system for anxious or vulnerable students to leave class unchallenged if they are overwhelmed, a toilet pass if there's a medical need and then staff who know their students and make on the spot judgements to support the child.

We do a lot. I can't speak for other schools.

Kids can be kids, like they have been for years.
A bit of two way respect, neither side taking the piss and everyone knowing where they stand goes a long way.

mathanxiety
I don't get the repeated 'lets talk of flooding'.
Benefit of the doubt to start. After all, my school gives us discretion.
If they take the piss they lose my benefit of thr doubt.

When students see you be firm and fair tjey know where they stand with you. Then you get to thr nice situation where you don't end up with lots of confrontations because 2 way mutual respect is established.

How do you propose a "let everyonr out whenever they ask first time, no questions" would work in a school of nearly 2000 students?

I'm quite happy with a middle ground of common sense. That isn't enough for some on here.

Lulujakey

I've never had a girl tell me she is on her period either, or leak and I always say no. You are right they learn to manage

That is in 11 years of teaching.

In all my years of teaching -17- I have never known a girl leak through sanitary protection and have an embarrassing accident

Well those girls were lucky. I can think of 2/3 girls who had period leakage incidents when I was at school although for whatever reason they didn't ask to use the loo as we were never denied the chance to use the loo either.

In fact all that was required was "just popping to the loo Miss X" and you left the classroom.

Missm84 16.50. "It is irrelevant to me how those refused feel when others are allowed........"

I speak to the class at the start of th3 first lesson, when I am telling them my expectations, before anyone even mentions loos. So it is not directed at anyone. I am completely fair and teenagers on the whole aporeciate that and will work with you. I always say if they must go of course they can go. I talk to them about only ever having to manage for 2 lessons maximum so they should go before school at Break or at lunchtime, or at the end of a lesson.

I don’t give a toss whether you approve or not but teenagers like to know where they stand. They know not to try it on and they know if they really need to go I will allow them. I would say someone asked once a fortnight or less.

Just before I left to have DS, a girl came to my office asking to go home because she had ‘come through’. It was the third time that week. She expected to be allowed to go home, have a bath and get changed every time. Teachers don’t expect to do that, nor do most women who have the odd leak. She just was not managing her periods properly. She should have had extra protection and a change of underwear with her if she thought she might need it. When I offered to ring her mum and ask her to bring stuff up it suddenly was not a problem and she did not need to go home at all.

I am not saying all teenage girls manipulate this but in my experience as a Head of Year, Head of Pastoral and Deputy Head, there are a number who do in every year group. Not misogynistic- true. Of course there are others who will have an issue. Most parents would let a school know about it so it is not embarrassing for their dauugher an£ we can say to staff ‘If x asks to go to the loo, please let her go without any fuss.’

Perchi

It is so rare that I allow a child, kids know that if they are allowed to go there must be a very good reason.

but teenagers like to know where they stand

Actually I think teenagers like to be treated as sentient human beings with body autonomy. Not some kind of bizarre robo-human who has the sheer dumb luck of a body working to a pre-prescribed schedule

It's interesting that there are people on here who are much stricter on not letting out of class on here.

It does make me laugh at how outraged people were with my 'there's a middle ground that is fair and reasonable' approach

Most of the ‘let them go whenever they like’ faction will not be secondary school teachers.

Missm84 16.50. 'It is irrelevant to me how those refused feel' gobsmacked, just can't get past this. Irrelevant to you how a kid feels, you should definitely not be a teacher, in my opinion. IRRELEVANT!!!!!!!!!!

Most of the ‘let them go whenever they like’ faction will not be secondary school teachers

Both secondaries we're considering for DD have that self same approach. One private, one state.

But why and how would you know LuluJakey1? I leaked a few times throughout secondary school, and never once told a teacher. I’d carry spare knickers and tights and was fortunate that I never leaked onto my skirt.

Also in my experience female teachers definitely do not deal with it better!
And I had teachers leave the classroom for the loo or if unwell before now and my bf said he’s left the classroom before if he’s needed. And let’s not forget that teachers are not sanctioned if they arrive to lessons a bit late, unlike pupils who sometime have to get from one end of school to the other in a few minutes. Which leaves no time for the loo between lessons and at my secondary it was 2 and a half hours between blocks of lessons and breaks.

Then of course there’s the fact that break times is the best opportunity to actually get to speak to teacher if you needed to go over something and if you did art or textile type subjects it’s common for lunch time to be working on coursework etc.
Add to that extra curricular lunch time groups. Most days from year 9 onwards I didn’t bother with lunch I ate something quick while doing other things, as I just didn’t have the time.

Of course some pupils will ‘try it on’ but let’s be honest those same ones are likely to find another reason or distraction if it’s not nipping to the loo! In year 7 there was a girl in my form who’s pens would routinely leak all over her hands, so she’d have to go wash them (she used to break them!).
I completely get the teachers using discretion and common sense.
But Missm84 who admits that she wouldn’t allow a primary child to go, despite believing they genuinely needed the loo. I’m sorry but you should be ashamed to call yourself a teacher.
And think of this..... if a child came to you and said their parents only let them use the toilet at certain times, they are told now is the time to go and then in between the toilet is locked, despite them saying they were desperate to go. As a teacher what would you think? And what would you do?Because my social worker mum would be thinking emotional and physical abuse!!

Most likely.

Personally, I think my school has the right approach. Nice, sensible middle groubd

We have however had notices in staff meeting to say 'can we remind staff that you need to use appropriate discretion as there's been an awful lot of atudents wandering and they seem to alk be from thr same subjects/staff. Stuudents should use breaks etc first and out og class is a last resort. We are seeing lots of the same faces out all the time. If staff can't use appropriate judgemebt then we'll need a locked system where students who go frequently in class are monitored'

Should add, the reminder for staff not to take the piss has meant we have only needef to do that system for a week.

We got back to common sense quitr quickly as that's what staff and studebts preferred

I had heavy periods until recently (fibroids potentially caused my clot in my leg) and ha to wear two pads, one normally and one across the back of my undies so it wouldn't go up the back of them. Might be worth getting her checked out for that if she has heavy ones. As for everyone posting saying ybu, well isn't it great being you having a period for three days and only having to use three pads/tampons.

I had heavy periods until recently (fibroids potentially caused my clot in my leg) and had to wear two pads, one normally and one across the back of my undies so it wouldn't go up the back of them. Might be worth getting her checked out for that if she has heavy ones. As for everyone posting saying ybu, well isn't it great being you having a period for three days and only having to use three pads/tampons.

I had heavy periods until recently (fibroids potentially caused my clot in my leg) and had to wear two pads, one normally and one across the back of my undies so it wouldn't go up the back of them. Might be worth getting her checked out for that if she has heavy ones. As for everyone posting saying ybu, well isn't it great being you having a period for three days and only having to use three pads/tampons.

posted too soon bloody computer...some people unfortunately have periods like Niagara Falls. Also when I was at school it was embarrassing to be known that you had 'started'.

I wish I knew you in rl Missm, I would be reporting you to social services, saying children's feelings are irrelevant. Are your own childrens feelings also irrelevant or just other parents children?

If as an adult you were sat at your deck in an office and felt yourself "leaking" you would expect to be able to go straight to the bathroom and sort yourself out, I'm sure no working environment ever has a zero tolerance policy of using the toilet in an emergency during work hours, why should we then expect our children to suffer the humiliation of potentially leaking onto their clothes/chair just because they are school age?

How might the "let everyone out when they ask" system work in a school of 2000 students, you ask.

My DCs' US high school has approximately 3,500 students and operates a hall pass system. They swipe their ID as they leave the room and swipe again on return to the classroom. The data reveals who is abusing the trust placed in them, as do test and exam results.

The school has a system of academic counselors who plot your course choices and assist with university/vocational course applications. They monitor grades. There are deans who monitor and assess discipline issues reported by teachers and/or are highlighted by ID swipes in classrooms and hallway machines. Sometimes a student will pull up his or her socks after an interview with their dean. There are three social workers who will deal with issues passed on by the deans if they have decided that the issue requires a therapeutic intervention. The team of class teacher, counselor, dean and perhaps social worker operates together seeking the best possible outcome for the student. The best possible outcome of a pattern of behaviour or single act of rule breaking for some categories of infraction is that the student is engaged with school life, resolving whatever social or emotional issues kept them from engagement, and progressing to the best of their ability academically.

The ID swiping was introduced in order to examine exactly why black students were being reported late to class more than white students. Was there a bias in favour of white students who arrived late, and corresponding failure to allow black students the benefit of the doubt? The test element of the system required that students outside a classroom after the class bell rang swiped their cards; for the testing period no teacher was allowed any discretion whatsoever as to who was admitted after the bell.

The data revealed that teachers were not as dispassionate as they thought they were but also that it was not a black/white issue. Teachers had favourites [gasp]. Their good judgement was creating a situation where race relations were being damaged because there was a perception of discrimination against a group.

The school works very hard to improve perception because it is extremely important to school culture, to academic attainment, to how welcome parents feel - it's all a circle feeding into itself and gathering a momentum of its own. If an element of the perception is causing problems, then it is important to address that. The school is funded by the taxes of the community and only caters for students who live in the catchment. All stakeholders are able to participate in policy decisions, to question the administration and to get respectful answers. It is a very democratic system. It is also a system where students understand that a certain amount of trust is placed in them and they are assumed to be active and positive participants in their own education. "Trust but monitor" could accurately describe how it operates. Positive expectations generate a culture of engagement.

The basic feeling that the school wishes all students to feel is that the entire community is concerned with each individual student's personal human dignity. The dignity of the individual student is at the heart of discipline policy and strategies permitted for classroom management. Individual student treatment is data driven and so is intervention policy. Interventions are as appropriate as humanly possible. Intervention options and escalations are clearly set out, with different categories of offense identified and stages of carrot/stick followed to the letter, with parents always informed and invited to be involved. (Some just shrug, which is sad).

Community resources are sometimes involved too - the community youth initiative officer works closely with youth in danger of gang influence, delinquency, etc. The police seek to prevent crime such as drug dealing rather than arrest a student after the fact. Again, all police decisions are open to public scrutiny, and in my particular home municipality, policy and programmes are data driven with an eye to improving community integration.

You can complain that that costs money. It certainly does.
But basing school policy on teacher perceptions or student perceptions or parent perceptions alone is nonsense, and may be working against everything the school hopes to achieve.

All discipline policy and all quality of life policies in a school should be data driven.

mathanxiety
I really like the swipe pass idea!

I run a common sense classroom in that 'you take the piss or abuse my trust then you lose me giving you the benefit of thr doubt' so default is 'really not in class' and usually that's a 'no straight after break/lunch & a no just before break/lunch' with discretion in between (e.g. if I'm mid teaching input leaving means missing a chubk of new content vs 15 mins into an independent task and it's someone who doesn't take thr piss, I'll ask if thry cab wait 5 and then let them go.) Students know I'll let them if they don't take the mick.

I'd happily go for a 'yes you can leave as the default but the teacher can say just wait til we've done x y and z' if a system was in place to monitor predictable student patterns.
E.g. i had a student who always asked just as independent work was starting. Every lesson without fail. No 'can i go earlier' and thrn 'miss i really do need it'. Just 0 to dying in 30 seconds. Othet staff had noticed thr same.
Your pass system would flag that up and thrn that student can be spoken to.

LuluJakey
Just before I left to have DS, a girl came to my office asking to go home because she had ‘come through’. It was the third time that week. She expected to be allowed to go home, have a bath and get changed every time. Teachers don’t expect to do that, nor do most women who have the odd leak. She just was not managing her periods properly. She should have had extra protection and a change of underwear with her if she thought she might need it. When I offered to ring her mum and ask her to bring stuff up it suddenly was not a problem and she did not need to go home at all.

And this suggests to you that the student is a manipulative liar?

Or maybe the girl is dealing with a mum or guardian figure who would make her suffer for such a request? Some students have parents who are psychos when it comes to menstruation.
Maybe the girl comes from a home where sanpro is not provided and managing her periods is not possible?
Maybe the girl comes from a home where there is not enough money for sanpro?
Maybe the girl is meeting someone outside of school, someone not in her best interests to meet?
Maybe the girl suffers from anxiety so badly that she can't deal with normal classroom stress?